How come women do not cover their heads in Church anymore?

[1Christianwarrior316]

1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Co 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
1Co 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
1Co 11:12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
1Co 11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

In verse 14 and 15 Paul clearly stated that a woman's long hair is given for her covering,

Sister starfield I have to disagree with the statement I quoted above.
This is where many become confused on this issue and miss the point of what Paul is saying here and use verse 15 to support their stance. If a woman’s hair is to be used as a veil as many in this case believe then verse 15 would be in contradiction to verse 6. For verse 6 clearly states that if a woman is not veiled she is to be shorn or shaven. Therefore eliminating the possibility that her hair is used as a veil/covering in this matter.

God's Word does not contradict itself.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

Sister starfield I have to disagree with the statement I quoted above.

To correct my quote I should have said "I have to disagree with the statement I quoted above if you're implying that a woman's hair is her covering."

1Christianwarrior316

 

[savedNblessed]

1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Co 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
1Co 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
1Co 11:12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
1Co 11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Sister starfield I have to disagree with the statement I quoted above.
This is where many become confused on this issue and miss the point of what Paul is saying here and use verse 15 to support their stance. If a woman’s hair is to be used as a veil as many in this case believe then verse 15 would be in contradiction to verse 6. For verse 6 clearly states that if a woman is not veiled she is to be shorn or shaven. Therefore eliminating the possibility that her hair is used as a veil/covering in this matter.

God's Word does not contradict itself.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

It says it clearly, that if you don't wanna cover it with another layer of covering then just cut your hair off or shave your head. But if you don't wanna cut your hair off or get your head shaved then cover it. So it's not just the hair that is used as covering. Paul is talking about an actual "covering on head".

 

[Therapon]

I have read quite a few 4th to 16th Century histories of England, and as a consequence, have a fair comprehension of Early and Middle English, but perish the thought that I should tell the Venerable Bede that he didn’t understand his own language. In the same way, it is blatant hubris to presume that we can know more about koine` Greek today, than did the people who used it in their everyday speech.

That’s an important point, because a great deal was written about woman’s veiling before the 4th Century AD. It would be foolish indeed to ignore what was written about this ordinance by the men who sat at the apostles feet and spoke koine`Greek every day of their lives. Around the year 200, from Carthage -- incedentally a thouroughly helenized city -- Tertullian wrote a tract entitled The Veiling of Virgins in which he argued that Paul was using the word ãõíÞ (gune) in the sense of "a female," rather than just a married woman. In the course of his argument, Tertullian described various head-covering practices throughout the Church, including that of the church in Corinth. Here is a direct quote from that tract:

"I also admonish you second group of women, who are married, not to outgrow the discipline of the veil. Not even for a moment of an hour. Because you can’t avoid wearing a veil, you should not find some other way to nullify it. That is, by going about neither covered nor bare. For some women do not veil their heads, but rather bind them up with turbans and woollen bands. It’s true that they are protected in front. But where the head properly lies, they are bare.
"Others cover only the area of the brain with small linen coifs that do not even quite reach the ears...They should know that the entire head constitutes the woman. Its limits and boundaries reach as far as the place where the robe begins. The region of the veil is co-extensive with the space covered by the hair when it is unbound. In this way, the neck too is encircled.
"The pagan women of Arabia will be your judges. For they cover not only the head, but the face also...But how severe a chastisement will they likewise deserve, who remain uncovered even during the recital of the Psalms and at any mention of the name of God? For even when they are about to spend time in prayer itself, they only place a fringe, tuft (of cloth), or any thread whatever on the crown of their heads. And they think that they are covered!"
David W. Bercot, A Glimpse At Early Christian Church Life, (Tyler, TX: Scroll Publishing Co., 1991), pp.150-151 cites Tertullian, The Veiling of Virgins

Earlier in his tract, Tertullian declared that churches founded by the apostles themselves insisted that both married women and virgins be veiled:

"Throughout Greece, and certain of its barbaric provinces, the majority of churches keep their virgins covered. In fact, this practice is followed in certain places beneath this African sky. So let no one ascribe this custom merely to the Gentile customs of the Greeks and barbarians.Moreover, I will put forth as models those churches that were founded by either the apostles or apostolic men . . . The Corinthians themselves understood him to speak in this manner. For to this very day the Corinthians veil their virgins. What the apostles taught, the disciples of the apostles confirmed." Tertullian, The Veiling of Virgins

Clement of Alexandria, writing from Egypt in about 190AD, counseled on head-covering as follows:

"Let a woman observe this, further. Let her be entirely covered, unless she happens to be at home. For that style of dress is grave, and protects from being gazed at. And she will never fall, who puts before her eyes modesty, and her shawl; nor will she invite another to fall into sin by uncovering her face. For this is the wish of the Word, since it is becoming for her to pray veiled." Clement The Instructor 3.12.

Hippolytus, an elder in the church in Rome around the year 200, compiled a record of the various customs and practices in that church from the writings of his predecessors. His work, the Apostolic Tradition contains the following:

"And let all the women have their heads covered with an opaque cloth, not with a veil of thin linen, for this is not a true covering."
Hippolytus Apostolic Tradition 18.

Chrysostom (AD344-407) urged women to worship with veiled heads, and men with bared heads.
Jerome (AD345-429) confirms that Christian women wore veils during his time, both in Egypt and Syria.

Augustine (AD 354-430)in various writings insisted that women not uncover their hair. Here is an excerpt: "It is not becoming even in married women to uncover their hair, since the apostle commands the women to keep their heads covered. ‘For she is instructed for this very reason to cover her head, which he (a man) is forbidden to do because he is in the image of God.’" Tom Shank, ...let her be veiled, (Kalispell, MT, The Torch, 1992) pp.44-48

Some well known evangelical theologians still teach this ordinance, not the least of whom is Charles Ryrie. If that sounds unbelievable, just read his notes on 1Co 11 in the Ryrie Study Bible.
All this argument about a simple command in Scripture reminds me of a 1st Century Jewish tradition . . . the one which held that a Jewish priest could not become a member of the Sanhedrin unless he was able to logically prove -- from Torah -- that is was permissible to offer a pig on the altar of burnt offering. Ok, so the Pharisees could prove it, but did their exercise in convoluted "theo-logic" lead them to the truth? Of course not, and that appears to be where a majority of churches are today. They have logically found 1Co 11:5-6 to be a New Testament pig they can sacrifice on the brazen altar of their questionable recollection of Church history and their theoretical understanding of koine`Greek.

 

[hattiebod]

It says it clearly, that if you don't wanna cover it with another layer of covering then just cut your hair off or shave your head. But if you don't wanna cut your hair off or get your head shaved then cover it. So it's not just the hair that is used as covering. Paul is talking about an actual "covering on head".

This is an old chestnut!! such a controversial topic, and one people feel very strongly about. I understand that it was Jewish law that women be veiled. We are no longer under such law but Paul was teaching and living very much under the laws of the time. I read from one writer that the shaven heads referred to in scripture was to do with the priestesses who prayed and delivered their oracles bareheaded. What i think is interesting though is that the folks that usually feel strongly that women should cover their heads today, often also state that women should remain silent in church. Paul clearly stated it was a choice, 1Cor.16 'but if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God'. The Jews were instructed to wear a veil, Jews were not permited to pray of prophesise unless veiled but Christianity is 'open' to God, WE ARE FREE!!! the veil is gone, the temple curtain torn down, we do not need to worship in secret or under cover. BUT, if anyone wishes to cover...that is their choice and just like vegetarianism, we ought to respect their choice. Just my two pence worth! To God be the Glory!! <><

 

[Therapon]

This is an old chestnut!! such a controversial topic, and one people feel very strongly about. I understand that it was Jewish law that women be veiled. We are no longer under such law but Paul was teaching and living very much under the laws of the time. I read from one writer that the shaven heads referred to in scripture was to do with the priestesses who prayed and delivered their oracles bareheaded. What i think is interesting though is that the folks that usually feel strongly that women should cover their heads today, often also state that women should remain silent in church. Paul clearly stated it was a choice, 1Cor.16 'but if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God'. The Jews were instructed to wear a veil, Jews were not permited to pray of prophesise unless veiled but Christianity is 'open' to God, WE ARE FREE!!! the veil is gone, the temple curtain torn down, we do not need to worship in secret or under cover. BUT, if anyone wishes to cover...that is their choice and just like vegetarianism, we ought to respect their choice. Just my two pence worth! To God be the Glory!! <><

Well, I didn't post about chestnuts, but about the behavior of saintly women in the whole church for 20 centuries.

 

[hattiebod]

Well, I didn't post about chestnuts, but about the behavior of saintly women in the whole church for 20 centuries.


It is indeed, 'an old chestnut' and it keeps coming up and often causes offence. As some may take from what you write here....some could take that you think if a woman does not cover in church she is somehow not as worthy, saintly or devout as one who does. We will have to aggree to disagree. There are many learned men of the scriptures who did not believe what you do. Charles Ryrie wrote a lot about many topics and you agree with him and thats good...for you. All these men you quote, Augustine et al, are maybe learned...but they are simply men, sinners just like me. We are all free in Christ, and in this matter we are both agreed and that's the most important thing. I am not stopped from doing the work Christ calls me to do, I am not stopped from my relationship with God coz I have not got my hat on Thank God my salvation is nothing to do with such things

 

[Therapon]

Well, I didn't post about chestnuts, but about the behavior of saintly women in the whole church for 20 centuries.


It is indeed, 'an old chestnut' and it keeps coming up and often causes offence. As some may take from what you write here....some could take that you think if a woman does not cover in church she is somehow not as worthy, saintly or devout as one who does. We will have to aggree to disagree. There are many learned men of the scriptures who did not believe what you do. Charles Ryrie wrote a lot about many topics and you agree with him and thats good...for you. All these men you quote, Augustine et al, are maybe learned...but they are simply men, sinners just like me. We are all free in Christ, and in this matter we are both agreed and that's the most important thing. I am not stopped from doing the work Christ calls me to do, I am not stopped from my relationship with God coz I have not got my hat on Thank God my salvation is nothing to do with such things

Salvation is not just saying a bunch of magic words. Nobody comes to the Lord because it is a goodie-to-shoes, thing to do. If we actually do come to the Lord, it because we recognizes what monsters of iniquity we are in His sight and how badly we needs to. When a person truly come to the Lord, the first thing he does is repent on his face at the foot of the Cross, as 2Corinthians states, "repentance that leadeth unto salvation."

At which point, God takes out our hearts stone and replaces them with "with hearts of flesh," the result being, we now do what the Lord commands, not because we have to, but because we love Him. There are all kinds of ways we can sidestep any of God's ordinances, but as Watchman Nee wrote, "if you want to be found pleasing in God's sight, find ways to obey."

 

[Kefa52]

Ecc 1:1
The words of the Teacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.

Ecc 1:2
"Utterly pointless," says the Teacher. "Absolutely pointless; everything is pointless."

Ecc 1:3
What does a man gain from all of the work that he undertakes on earth?

Ecc 1:4
A generation goes, a generation comes, but the earth remains forever.

Ecc 1:5
The sun rises, the sun sets, then rushes back to where it arose.

Ecc 1:6
The wind blows continually—southward, then northward, constantly circulating—and the wind comes back again in its courses.

Ecc 1:7
All the rivers flow toward the sea, but the sea is never full; then rivers return to the headwaters where they began.

Ecc 1:8
Everything is wearisome, more than man is able to express. The eye is never satisfied by seeing, nor the ear by hearing.

Ecc 1:9
Whatever has happened, will happen again; whatever has been done, will be done again. There is nothing new on earth.

Ecc 1:10
Does anything exist about which someone might say, "Look at this! Is this new?" It happened ages ago; it existed before we did.

Ecc 1:11
No one remembers those in the past, nor will they be remembered by those who come after them.

 

[Pilgrimer]

When I was in India, I used to cover my head with a scarf in Church or basically at any gathering, where we took the Lord's name. This was practiced "mostly" by all women there. When I moved to the US, I didn't see women covering their's heads, doesn't matter which denomination Church I went to. At at some churches, I was looked down upon when I did cover my head. I have asked few pastors this question but no one was able to give me an answer that made sense. So help me out people. Thanks in advance. Blessings

I hope you will be patient with us, but we Protestant Christians have a highly developed sense of dislike of anything that resembles legalism. We jealously guard our freedom in Christ and for some, unfortunately, that can spill over into ... discomfort ... with anything that might seem at odds with it. Most western Christians will say that we feel it is not what we wear on our heads that makes us reverent or godly, but rather, that we adorn ourselves with "a meek and quite spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price."

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Therapon]

I hope you will be patient with us, but we Protestant Christians have a highly developed sense of dislike of anything that resembles legalism. We jealously guard our freedom in Christ and for some, unfortunately, that can spill over into ... discomfort ... with anything that might seem at odds with it. Most western Christians will say that we feel it is not what we wear on our heads that makes us reverent or godly, but rather, that we adorn ourselves with "a meek and quite spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price." Pilgrimer

We do indeed have freedom in Christ, freedom from the Levitical law and freeedom from the penalty of sin, but that freedom does not include freedom to openly disobey His Word.

 

[savedNblessed]

View attachment 41650



This is an old chestnut!! such a controversial topic, and one people feel very strongly about. I understand that it was Jewish law that women be veiled. We are no longer under such law but Paul was teaching and living very much under the laws of the time. I read from one writer that the shaven heads referred to in scripture was to do with the priestesses who prayed and delivered their oracles bareheaded. What i think is interesting though is that the folks that usually feel strongly that women should cover their heads today, often also state that women should remain silent in church. Paul clearly stated it was a choice, 1Cor.16 'but if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God'. The Jews were instructed to wear a veil, Jews were not permited to pray of prophesise unless veiled but Christianity is 'open' to God, WE ARE FREE!!! the veil is gone, the temple curtain torn down, we do not need to worship in secret or under cover. BUT, if anyone wishes to cover...that is their choice and just like vegetarianism, we ought to respect their choice. Just my two pence worth! To God be the Glory!! <><

WE ARE FREE=disobedience to God? Maybe I guess the "modern Christian" woman wants to show that she is as equal as a man, that's why she doesn't cover her head. Because accroding to the Scriptures, it's clearly an act of submission/obedience.

 

[savedNblessed]

Salvation is not just saying a bunch of magic words. Nobody comes to the Lord because it is a goodie-to-shoes, thing to do. If we actually do come to the Lord, it because we recognizes what monsters of iniquity we are in His sight and how badly we needs to. When a person truly come to the Lord, the first thing he does is repent on his face at the foot of the Cross, as 2Corinthians states, "repentance that leadeth unto salvation."

At which point, God takes out our hearts stone and replaces them with "with hearts of flesh," the result being, we now do what the Lord commands, not because we have to, but because we love Him. There are all kinds of ways we can sidestep any of God's ordinances, but as Watchman Nee wrote, "if you want to be found pleasing in God's sight, find ways to obey."

AMEN! Can not agree more.

 

[savedNblessed]

I hope you will be patient with us, but we Protestant Christians have a highly developed sense of dislike of anything that resembles legalism. We jealously guard our freedom in Christ and for some, unfortunately, that can spill over into ... discomfort ... with anything that might seem at odds with it. Most western Christians will say that we feel it is not what we wear on our heads that makes us reverent or godly, but rather, that we adorn ourselves with "a meek and quite spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price."

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

I should have mentioned, I was born and raised in a METHODIST church and I attend one right now too But the Methodist women in India are very very very different than women here, in the US.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

"Women’s hair was a common object of lust in antiquity, and in much of the eastern Mediterranean women were expected to cover their hair. To fail to cover their hair was thought to provoke male lust as a bathing suit is thought to provoke it in some cultures today.

Head covering prevailed in Jewish Palestine (where it extended even to a face veil) and elsewhere, but upper-class women eager to show off their fashionable hairstyles did not practice it.

Thus Paul must address a clash of culture in the church between upper-class fashion and lower-class concern that sexual propriety is being violated."

Paul provides a series of brief arguments, each of which relates directly to the culture he addresses. His arguments do not work well in every culture (he is not completely satisfied with all of them himself—11:11–12), but it is the Corinthian women, not modern women, whom he wishes to persuade to cover their heads."

Keener, C. S. (1993). The IVP Bible background commentary: New Testament (1 Co 11:2–16). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

 

[doulos]

I’m of the opinion that Paul’s writing applies to all people across the timeline and cultural lines.

1Co 1:1- 2 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

 

[Therapon]

I’m of the opinion that Paul’s writing applies to all people across the timeline and cultural lines.

1Co 1:1- 2 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

That's not just your opinion, that's exactly what the Word says.

 

[Therapon]

I should have mentioned, I was born and raised in a METHODIST church and I attend one right now too But the Methodist women in India are very very very different than women here, in the US.

Yes, and before WW2 I was in the Phippiines with my missionary parents, where the church was also far different than the hedonistic one we now see in America. So I am with you sister, please don't allow the disobedient to convince you to be like them.

 

[Therapon]

"Women’s hair was a common object of lust in antiquity, and in much of the eastern Mediterranean women were expected to cover their hair. To fail to cover their hair was thought to provoke male lust as a bathing suit is thought to provoke it in some cultures today. Head covering prevailed in Jewish Palestine (where it extended even to a face veil) and elsewhere, but upper-class women eager to show off their fashionable hairstyles did not practice it.
Thus Paul must address a clash of culture in the church between upper-class fashion and lower-class concern that sexual propriety is being violated."

Paul provides a series of brief arguments, each of which relates directly to the culture he addresses. His arguments do not work well in every culture (he is not completely satisfied with all of them himself—11:11–12), but it is the Corinthian women, not modern women, whom he wishes to persuade to cover their heads." Keener, C. S. (1993). The IVP Bible background commentary: New Testament (1 Co 11:2–16). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

I don'r care who said it, it isn't true. Did you read my earlier post with all the quotes from Church fathers? Furthermore, the whole church, including the RCs, covered its head before 1948. This disobedience has only come into vogue during the last 60 years.

 

[doulos]

That's not just your opinion, that's exactly what the Word says.

LOL oops! I guess opinion was a poor choice maybe belief would have been better. I should have said I am of the belief that Paul's writing applies to all people across the timeline and cultural lines.