What does "limited atonement" mean?

[Elin]

But how could you even understand unconditional Love when Christ dies only for the elect(and we dont have a clue why)
And greatest glory is the damnation of others He created for that purpose. I couldnt live in the fear this would give me.

I hear you on that!

It was only after God brought me to saving faith that I could look into it.

Prior to that, it was just too awful (fearful).

And I didn't do awful.

 

[crossnote]

I'm on the deck looking at the stars and the deer and foxes just keep walking past.
And I'm starting to feel like a lazy elk, myself!

You should have fed the elk some of your TULIPS.

 

[Elin]

this is the problem, all you have given is human reasoning with an emotional appeal at that. When it comes to God's dealings involving things eternal all we got is what He has revealed in Scripture, I am not saying your position of unlimited atonement or Elin's of limited is correct, from my study of Scripture I see a case for both sides but have a hunch that there is missing data which God hasn't chosen to reveal to us yet...maybe in eternity we won't be looking through a glass darkly.

I see another objectionable thread coming. . .from you know where.

 

[Elin]

They dont have to have faith, according to them they are regenerated, then the Spirit gives them Faith as a fruit.
Even tho that is totally unbiblical.

I see another. . . . . .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually, God's sole purpose in creating is the pleasure of his glory (Rev 4:11), in glorifying his Son, through the Father's mercy and justice.

yet according to your belief, non of these are in effect.

God glories in sending people to hell he never offered even the slightest chance of being saved. (he is a dictator)

Christ did not die for everyone, only a few chosen select. His death thus becomes meaningless.. God could have forced the few he did die for to just never sin, why go into all the trouble causing your sin to suffer greater than mankind can even imagine, just so he can save a few people he randomly selected.

God has no mercy and justice. He randomly chooses,, claims he shows mercy, when he rejects a whole group of people who are just as guilty and undeserving as the people he randomly chose to save. And he calls it justice.. This is not justice this is arrogant dictatorship.

It is like three men are on death row, for killing and raping hundreds of young children, and the dictator says, You two will die, the third one will go free and be given a full pardon like he had never done anything wrong. Just because I said so. Yep, that is justice alright.. (rolls eyes)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is Gods glory to save ALL his creation on earth

It is to the praise of his son that he was made the propitiation for our sin, and not only ours (those in Christ) but the whole world.

Gods mercy and justice are proven because he condemned all because of sin ( no one is more, or less deserving of his mercy) and offered salvation to all men. His justice is proved because he offered his gift to all men, thus no one has an excuse and can say God is an unfair God.

 

[mark54]

this is the problem, all you have given is human reasoning with an emotional appeal at that. When it comes to God's dealings involving things eternal all we got is what He has revealed in Scripture, I am not saying your position of unlimited atonement or Elin's of limited is correct, from my study of Scripture I see a case for both sides but have a hunch that there is missing data which God hasn't chosen to reveal to us yet...maybe in eternity we won't be looking through a glass darkly.

What???
Data that some who are well read of scholars and theologians don't know about?
That's heresy, you're doomed

 

[Elin]

text has nothing to do with personal salvation or damnation
but a different thing altogether.

Are you sure about that?

Ro 9:18 - "Therefore, God has mercy (salvation) on whom he wants to have mercy,
and he hardens (damnation) whom he wants to harden."

Ro 9:27 - "only the remnant will be saved."

Ro 9:30-33 - "the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith (salvation);
but Israel who pursued it by a law of righteousness, has not obtained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith (damnation) but as if it were by works.

It is most definitely about salvation and damnation, both of which are personal.

 

[Elin]

jimmydiggs

"Whosever will" does not tell you who will. It just says, if you believe... not, who will believe. --So, how does that nullify = anyone who will

Exegesis sometimes is handy.

That, and basic vocabulary. -- Jimmy, a wee-bit sly, don't you think? I am 44 years old and my mentality is not that of a 5 year old. Could we perhaps, move away from this sort of communication?

So, you're just looking to justify what is in your heart? --Ok, apparently not. I do not have time for this....

Talk to me when you grow up.....

I think he is being cryptic about the logic.

I think he is saying that if one is born again, he doesn't think in those terms after his rebirth
because his heart has been so dramatically changed,
and that kind of thinking seems reasonable only to the unregenerate.

To those who are born again, that kind of thinking is contradictory to what is in their hearts.
That thinking seems reasonable only to those who want to justify their unbelief.

So he is asking if that is what is in your heart, which is why you think that way.

 

[Bookends]

Let's see.
Both Reform and the Scriptures say 'All have sinned'
Both the Reform and Scriptures say 'Christ died for sinners.'
Therefore Christ died for all.

On the other hand...
If God loves everyone and Christ died for all
then why didn't God predestinate or elect all?

Because [SUP]18 [/SUP]“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:18-19

The doctrine that God hand picks winners and losers is false doctrine, but hey, just continue to believe the doctrines of men force feed you, their not all bad.

 

[Elin]

No, but we have faith first. Receive the gospel then are regenerated.
I think im going to restudy regenarated also.

Faith is first. Although it is a fruit and a spiritual gift. Meaning a supernatural abundance.
The unregenerate can exercise faith.

Not unless the Father enables them (Jn 6:65).

Does he enable all? If he does, and it's the common natural order of things, then why even mention it?

Jesus states it because it is not the common natural order of things,
it is the uncommon supernatural (spiritual) order of things.

 

[Elin]

see, i'm hearing about God's Love (and He is Love), and how He gave everyone a chance to believe (in eternity past?), but some refused to in spite of His clear offer so they are going into the lake of fire.

what i don't quite get with this, is:

WHY wouldn't the God Who is All Powerful and All Knowing Who knows the ignorance and hardness of men, their foolishness in loving sin more than Him OVER-RIDE all that and make certain they all understood without equivocation, without any doubt whatsoever where they were going for rejecting His clear and open offer? eternal fire?

why wouldn't the God Who is Love some are saying can not be basing His decisons on anything other than His absolute respect for man's free will OVER-RIDE their BAD free will choices?

let's face some reality - i know that IF the people i know who refuse to hear the Gospel REALLY understood what will happen they would absolutely repent!

but....they don't believe. they don't appear to be able to!

i don't know what that means.

It means exactly that. . .they are not able to, because God has not enabled them (Jn 6:65).

 

[cfultz3]

I think he is being cryptic about the logic.

I think he is saying that if one is born again, he doesn't think in those terms after his rebirth
because his heart has been so dramatically changed,
and that kind of thinking seems reasonable only to the unregenerate.

To those who are born again, that kind of thinking is contradictory to what is in their hearts.
That thinking seems reasonable only to those who want to justify their unbelief.

So he is asking if that is what is in your heart, which is why you think that way.

Hmmmm. I will leave this alone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not unless the Father enables them (Jn 6:65).

Does he enable all? If he does, and it's the common natural order of things, then why even mention it?

Jesus states it because it is not the common natural order of things,
it is the uncommon supernatural (spiritual) order of things.

then why go through all of the trouble of condemning his son to death and extreme pain.

Why not just enable those who chose from birth to not sin?

I mean he can do it. But he did not just to make his son suffer? what kind of God is that?

This is starting to get laughable..

 

[zone]

Let me reword it:

very few are willing to have faith and follow Him.

chris, i don't care how you package this, you're going to be able to boast about your willingness to have (where you received it from i do not know) faith, and follow Him.

Matthew 11:27
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

All things
committed to me (Jesus)
by The Father
No one knows the Son
except the Father
and no one knows the Father
except the Son
and
those to whom
the Son chooses
to reveal him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

chris, i don't care how you package this, you're going to be able to boast about your willingness to have (where you received it from i do not know) faith, and follow Him.

You think he is boasting?

Wow, since when is boasting in the work of someone else boasting? Scripture calls this humility.. I guess scripture is wrong.

Matthew 11:27
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

All things
committed to me (Jesus)
by The Father
No one knows the Son
except the Father
and no one knows the Father
except the Son
and
those to whom
the Son chooses
to reveal him.

and who does he chose and why?

thus the whole crux of the argument.

 

[cfultz3]

Hmmmm. I will leave this alone.

I cannot help it, but how does understanding I have a will to choice make me unregenerated? If I am still in the darkness and have not yet been reborn, then you are saying I am doomed. All because I am in disagreement to your way of thinking.

 

[mark54]

But believers still have the fallen nature, although they have been freed from the power of sin.

And their fallen nature limits their moral power.

For example, does the believer have the moral power to choose to live a completely sinless life?

He does not

So I guess a convert has a get out of jail free card, if(or should I say when) he sins, it isn't his fault, there's nothing he can do about it.

Schucks, if only I'd know that years ago, I wouldn't have felt bad for my sin.

 

[zone]

Though it may sound strange to some i have known Him since i can remember.
Being raised the same my siblings think i'm crazy or lost my mind

don't you want God to override their freewill?
i do with my family who thinks i'm crazy.

WHY does He loves them less/woo them less hard? why doesn't He FORCE them to believe? (< this is rhetorical)

THEY WOULD LOVE HIM FOR THAT. for opening their eyes. they would be so grateful.
they wouldn't be robots....they would BE SAVED.
He would still get the Glory.

i don't understand it.

 

[Elin]

Jesus said few there be that find it.
that means few.
God used the words election, and choosing.
i don't know why christians of all people who know the scriptures are offended by these things.
if they are...i don't know.

That is the approach to Scripture I take.

Let it say what it says, no matter how objectionable.
Don't alter to fit what I think it should say.

And what I found was, when you don't reject the objectionable,
the Scriptures begin opening up to you on the "objectionable,"
and like Job, you see it was yourself, not God's truth that was the problem.