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C
CDavid
Guest
Sense Paul, by being a weekly Sabbath keeper, taught us we should keep the weekly Sabbath, and more importantly sense Jesus kept the Sabbath, and said we should, I fail to understand why so many don't.
In Romans 14:5-6, Paul was in no way saying we should not keep the weekly Sabbath. He was referring to the many other Jewish holidays that were observed in the same manner that the Lords Sabbath is observed. These holidays/sabbaths (with a small s) include; Passover - March 25 - April 2, 2013; Second Passover - April 24, 2013; Lag B'Omer - April 28, 2013; Sefirat HaOmer - March 26 - May 14, 2013; Shavuot - May 14 - 16, 2013; Fast of the 17th of Tammuz - June 25, 2013; Fast of Tish'a B'Av - July 15 - 16, 2013 ; The 15th of Av - July 22, 2013; The Month of Elul - August 7 - September 4, 2013 ; Rosh Hashanah - September 4 - 6, 2013 ; Fast of Gedaliah - September 8, 2013; Yom Kippur - September 13 - 14, 2013; Sukkot - September 18 - 25, 2013; Hoshanah Rabbah - September 25, 2013; Shemini Atzeret & Simchat Torah - September 25 - 27, 2013; Chanukah - November 27 - December 5, 2013; Fast of Tevet 10 - December 13, 2013; Tu B'Shevat - January 16, 2014; Ta'anit Esther - March 13, 2014; Purim - March 15 - 16, 2014; Shushan Purim - March 17, 2014
These are the special days that Paul was speaking of in Romans 14:5-6. Not to be confused with the Sabbath day of the Lord.
All these sabbath days (with a small s) were Jewish law/Mosaic law/law and ordinances of the book, from which Paul said we are free. When speaking of the commandments of God, Paul said in Romans 7:12 "Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good."
Most Christians seem to not understand there were two OT laws; the law and ordinances of the book/Mosaic laws written on parchment, and the other law written in stone by the finger of God/the commandments of God.
Paul said, we are free from the ordinances contained in the law of the book, not Gods commandments. There are no ordinances contained in Gods commandments. Also, God did not write His commands in a book. He wrote them in stone.
The law that was nailed to the cross, was the book of laws. A nail will not make it through stone.
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RachelBibleStudent
Guest
no it doesn't...the sabbath commandment does not mention the 'springs of water'...
in the book of acts luke twice quotes the creation reference from the sabbath commandment...and luke quotes it exactly...if luke can quote it exactly then so could the angel in revelation...if that was what he had meant to do...evidently it was not the angel's intention to quote it...
furthermore...the same words as in the sabbath commandment appear in psalm 46...you could just as easily argue that the angel in revelation was quoting the psalm instead of the sabbath commandment...
finally when in deuteronomy the commandments are proclaimed the second time...the reference to creation is not even mentioned as pertaining to the sabbath...instead it is replaced with a reference to the exodus... so there is not a one to one correspondence between the angel's message and the sabbath commandment...meaning it cannot be said to point uniquely to the sabbath...
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RachelBibleStudent
Guest
jesus taught against idolatry elsewhere...but interestingly he never tells anyone to observe the sabbath...not here or in any other passage...in fact he missed every opportunity he was given to say so...
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RachelBibleStudent
Guest
just the fact that this thread exists means there are people trying to impose their observance on others...that would not change whether i respond or not...
C
carey
Guest
I only ask because your responses seem to be argumentative, and against the Sabbath, and I haven't seen anyone trying to impose their beliefs onto you, actually this thread has been very informative, if you feel otherwise I'm sorry
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RachelBibleStudent
Guest
there is no evidence that paul was a sabbath keeper...
in romans 14 paul is talking about days that some people consider to be more holy than others...the sabbath would be included in that description...paul says nothing that would imply that the sabbath is an exception to the principle he is establishing...
moreover in colossians 2:16 paul includes the sabbath along with the new moons and festivals and dietary laws...they are all in the same category...
the plain meaning of paul's words is that anyone who regards the sabbath as just like any other day is serving God just as well as anyone who observes the sabbath...
lastly the law and the commandments cannot be separated...see exodus 24:12 where God refers to what is written on the stone tablets as both 'the law' and 'the commandment'...they are the same...
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RachelBibleStudent
Guest
i am not against the sabbath...i am against making present day sabbath keeping a requirement and trying to impose it on people who do not believe that it is a requirement...
and i said previously that most sabbath keepers don't even seem to realize when they are striving to impose their observance on others...usually through insinuations and subtle guilt tripping attempts...but it is pretty obvious to non sabbath keepers...
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CDavid
Guest
By keeping the Sabbath, Jesus taught us to keep the Sabbath.
What would Jesus do? Keep the Sabbath.
C
CDavid
Guest
I must now shake the dust from off my feet, for there are none so blind than those who will not see.
May God bless you in every way
K
Kefa52
Guest
Rom 14:1
Accept anyone who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of arguing over differences of opinion.
Rom 14:2
One person believes that he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.
Rom 14:3
The person who eats any kind of food must not ridicule the person who does not eat them, and the person who does not eat certain foods must not criticize the person who eats them, for God has accepted him.
Rom 14:4
Who are you to criticize someone else's servant? He stands or falls before his own Lord—and stand he will, because the Lord makes him stand.
Rom 14:5
One person decides in favor of one day over another, while another person decides that all days are the same. Let each one be fully convinced in his own mind:
Rom 14:6
The one who observes a special day, observes it to honor the Lord. The one who eats, eats to honor the Lord, since he gives thanks to God. And the one who does not eat, refrains from eating to honor the Lord; yet he, too, gives thanks to God.
Rom 14:7
For none of us lives for himself, and no one dies for himself.
Rom 14:8
If we live, we live to honor the Lord; and if we die, we die to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
Rom 14:9
For this reason the Messiah died and returned to life, so that he might become the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Rom 14:10
Why, then, do you criticize your brother? Or why do you despise your brother? For all of us will stand before the judgment seat of God.
Accept anyone who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of arguing over differences of opinion.
Rom 14:2
One person believes that he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.
Rom 14:3
The person who eats any kind of food must not ridicule the person who does not eat them, and the person who does not eat certain foods must not criticize the person who eats them, for God has accepted him.
Rom 14:4
Who are you to criticize someone else's servant? He stands or falls before his own Lord—and stand he will, because the Lord makes him stand.
Rom 14:5
One person decides in favor of one day over another, while another person decides that all days are the same. Let each one be fully convinced in his own mind:
Rom 14:6
The one who observes a special day, observes it to honor the Lord. The one who eats, eats to honor the Lord, since he gives thanks to God. And the one who does not eat, refrains from eating to honor the Lord; yet he, too, gives thanks to God.
Rom 14:7
For none of us lives for himself, and no one dies for himself.
Rom 14:8
If we live, we live to honor the Lord; and if we die, we die to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
Rom 14:9
For this reason the Messiah died and returned to life, so that he might become the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Rom 14:10
Why, then, do you criticize your brother? Or why do you despise your brother? For all of us will stand before the judgment seat of God.
As for Romans 14, the subject of the chapter from start to finish has to do with what people eat. Paul is writing about asceticism. Some in the church at Rome believed Christians should eat only vegetables. Paul calls these people "weak in the faith" (verses 1-2). The stronger in faith know they could also eat meat. Nothing in God's law prescribes vegetarianism. The stronger in faith knew they were free from non-biblical asceticism. A part of the controversy that had sprung up between the weak and the strong Christians was the esteeming of days. In Rome some people had the pagan idea that on certain days certain foods should or should not be eaten. In this whole chapter Paul was just showing that others should not be offended, particularly weak members who have not yet learned the truth about the proper Christian diet and that they should not be judged by the stronger in the faith. This passage has nothing to do with the Sabbath.
C
CDavid
Guest
Mark 12:29-30
[SUP]29[/SUP] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: [SUP]30[/SUP] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Jesus tells us the first and most important commandment is to love God. Mark 12:29-30
John tells us that the way to love God is by keeping His commandments. 1 John 5:3
Notice, he did not say keep all except number four. And, he did not say for Catholics to pray to statues of Mary, St. Peter, St. Patric, or St. Bernard. Ignoring the 4th command is as wrong as ignoring the 2nd command. Of course, Catholic Bibles do not have the command prohibiting graven images.
[SUP]29[/SUP] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: [SUP]30[/SUP] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Jesus tells us the first and most important commandment is to love God. Mark 12:29-30
John tells us that the way to love God is by keeping His commandments. 1 John 5:3
Notice, he did not say keep all except number four. And, he did not say for Catholics to pray to statues of Mary, St. Peter, St. Patric, or St. Bernard. Ignoring the 4th command is as wrong as ignoring the 2nd command. Of course, Catholic Bibles do not have the command prohibiting graven images.
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RachelBibleStudent
Guest
actually catholic bibles do include that commandment...i can post from several of them if anyone wants to see proof...
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CDavid
Guest
My brother is Catholic. I looked through his Catholic Bible, and the 2nd command was completely missing. In order to still have 10 commands, the 9th was divided into two commands. In my brothers Catholic Bible #9 prohibits coveting your neighbors wife, and #10 prohibits coveting your neighbors possessions.
Please post the misinformation you have. I will find information to debunk what you post.
C
CDavid
Guest
Essential Freedom:
Catholic Ten Commandments
The Catholic Ten Commandments are a summary of "the conditions of a life freed from the slavery of sin" (Catechism, 2057).
They must be understood in relation to the "law of love": Love of God and love of neighbor summarize all of Catholic morality. The law of love is also the first principle & source of the moral law. It contains "all the law and the prophets" (Mt 22:40).
The Catholic Ten Commandments are a description of the minimum that love requires.
Christian life itself requires much more than simply following the Ten Commandments. See the full article on Catholic morality for a discussion of this important point.
"What's 'Catholic' about them?"
While the entire Judeo-Christian tradition uses the same Scriptural content for the Ten Commandments, their exact division and numbering varies.
The Catholic tradition uses the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine. (The Lutheran confessions also use this numbering, while some other confessions & traditions use slightly different numberings.)
Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:
Catholic Ten Commandments
The Catholic Ten Commandments are a summary of "the conditions of a life freed from the slavery of sin" (Catechism, 2057).
They must be understood in relation to the "law of love": Love of God and love of neighbor summarize all of Catholic morality. The law of love is also the first principle & source of the moral law. It contains "all the law and the prophets" (Mt 22:40).
The Catholic Ten Commandments are a description of the minimum that love requires.
Christian life itself requires much more than simply following the Ten Commandments. See the full article on Catholic morality for a discussion of this important point.
"What's 'Catholic' about them?"
While the entire Judeo-Christian tradition uses the same Scriptural content for the Ten Commandments, their exact division and numbering varies.
The Catholic tradition uses the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine. (The Lutheran confessions also use this numbering, while some other confessions & traditions use slightly different numberings.)
Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:
- I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
- You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
- Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
- Honor your father and your mother.
- You shall not kill.
- You shall not commit adultery.
- You shall not steal.
- You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
- You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
- You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.
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RachelBibleStudent
Guest
exodus 20:4...
"Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth." (douay-rheims bible)
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;" (revised standard version catholic edition)
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." (new revised standard version catholic edition)
"You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;" (new american bible)
"You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth." (new jerusalem bible)
"non facies tibi sculptile neque omnem similitudinem quae est in caelo desuper et quae in terra deorsum nec eorum quae sunt in aquis sub terra" (latin vulgate)
that is six roman catholic bibles that include the commandment against images...clearly the roman catholic church has not deleted it...
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CDavid
Guest
[FONT="]The Ten Commandments[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]The Ten Commandments as handed down by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai were the beginning of the nation of Israel, when they were leaving Egypt as slaves, for freedom in the promised land. They were considered to be the Law of God for his chosen people. There are, however, some major differences in interpretation. There is a difference in what the Catholic Church uses as the Ten Commandments and what the protestant churches use. In the Catholic Church they are as follows:[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
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[FONT="]1.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]2.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]3.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]4.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]Honor your father and your mother [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]5.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not kill [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]6.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not commit adultery [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]7.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not steal [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]8.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not bear false witness [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]9.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not covet your neighbor's wife[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]10.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not covet your neighbor's goods[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] Here again, no prohibition of graven image[/FONT][FONT="]s[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
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[FONT="]1.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]2.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]3.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]4.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]Honor your father and your mother [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]5.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not kill [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]6.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not commit adultery [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]7.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not steal [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]8.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not bear false witness [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]9.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not covet your neighbor's wife[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT] [FONT="]10.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]You shall not covet your neighbor's goods[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] Here again, no prohibition of graven image[/FONT][FONT="]s[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
C
CDavid
Guest
[FONT="]Most common Protestant listing: [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
Honour thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not kill
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
Thou shalt not covet [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]Latin Catholic listing: [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]Thou shalt not have other gods besides Me
Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day
Honor thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods[/FONT][FONT="]
Again no prohibition of graven images in the Latin Catholic and #9 is split into two commands
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[FONT="]Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
Honour thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not kill
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
Thou shalt not covet [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]Latin Catholic listing: [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]Thou shalt not have other gods besides Me
Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day
Honor thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods[/FONT][FONT="]
Again no prohibition of graven images in the Latin Catholic and #9 is split into two commands
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C
CDavid
Guest
| 1st | I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. | 1st | I am the LORD thy God. Thou shalt have no strange gods before Me. |
| 2nd | Exodus 20:4-6 You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my Commandments. | Deleted. See also idolatry in the Catholic Church (There is idolatry in the Papal system so the second Commandment has been deleted or sometimes it has been absorbed into the first. All remaining Commandments are therefore shifted along one count.) | |
| 3rd | Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God In vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. | 2nd | Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain. |
| 4th | Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. | 3rd | Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day. (The Sabbath is the fourth Commandment by normal count. The day to be kept is no longer mentioned since they changed the Sabbath to Sunday.) (Note that God had more to say about the fourth Commandment than all others and with good reason. It is very important.) |
| 5th | Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. | 4th | Honour thy father and thy mother. |
| 6th | Thou shalt not kill. | 5th | Thou shalt not kill. |
| 7th | Thou shalt not commit adultery. | 6th | Thou shalt not commit adultery. |
| 8th | Thou shalt not steal. | 7th | Thou shalt not steal. |
| 9th | Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. | 8th | Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. |
| 10th | Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. | 9th | Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife. (The Tenth Commandment is split into two to get back to Ten Commandments.) |
| 10th | Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods. |
[TD="class: tdwidth, colspan: 2"] Bible Ten Commandments [/TD]
[TD="class: tdwidth, colspan: 2"] Catholic Ten Commandments [/TD]
Again, no prohibition of graven images from the Catholic. And, they split #9 in order to still have ten commands.
I can do this all night.
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