The Return of Jews to Israel

[Abiding]

I don't know exactly where I got it from but I have winter 57-58. But of course it's is irrelevant, because if he penned it any time after the cross, you cannot use the cross as the time he referenced.

But now you are wandering off into presumption to fit your pop-eschatological approach.
You even have to pretend that the "times of the Gentiles" in Jerusalem were fulfilled in the 1st century, when the Roman GENTILES came back to kill another 500 to 750,000 Jews less than 70 years later. But with eyes open to history a person can see the time of the Gentiles in Jerusalem were not fulfilled until Jews gained control in 1967.

I have no idea why you say im using the cross for any time reference.
Also im not in agreement the "times of the gentiles" and the "fulness of the gentiles" are the same.
1967 doesnt apply at all to me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Perhaps you should have finished the passage, along with everybody else, throughout several threads who quite casually do the same.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

So you know God's judgments and ways?

well for some reason. You refuse to answer. and refuse to listen to anything.

If you think ANY person will be saved apart from Christ. you teach a false gospel. and are thus seen as a false prophet.

God tells us his ways. Whoever believes is condemned, whoever does not believe is condemned already.. This goes for OT as well as NT believers.

I found christ through the same OT scripture they did.. If they did not find Christ. they have no hope. zero zip nada.

you think 11: 33 helps you out? all this does is PROVE there will be a remnant, until ALl are saved. it does not support your theory at all.

 

[crossnote]

Then how do you explain the physical matter of fact of the restoration of Jews to their land?
I would think you would agree that it did not take place in a spiritual vacuum. So from a Christian perspective it is either of the Lord, or it is of Satan, wouldn't you agree?

I don't think you read my post, as I said, literally.

 

[Abiding]

Please accept my apologies, Pete?
Been a bit ill lately, and am more impatient than usual.
Off to see the doc.
Thanks for your patience.

Oh i think yer wonerful

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are not reading the word of God in Scripture. Scripture says that God created this race out of Abraham to use to show us who He is. Scripture says that the way to salvation is through Christ. They talk of the Messiah, are still looking for Him and most do not recognize Christ as the true Messiah. We are to recognize that they are doing this in error, but scripture predicted they would and also tells us God will take care of it. Scripture even tells us God is using this to help us see the way to salvation.

In the last days, scripture says, we will see that God made them His chosen people and we will go back to following them. If we follow them, I feel sure God will see to that they will recognize the Messiah in the Christ who died for our sins. As it is, it is wrong for us not to follow them in knowing our Father God, the Father of the Messiah who died for our sins. We pray to "Our Father who is in heaven" yet put the Son who the Father gave for us ahead of the Father they know of. They are in grave, serious error. We are to see their error, but not be blind to the good because we see it. They are not denying a Messiah, they are denying that the Messiah was the man who lived in about the year 30, and all we know about. We are told to pray for them. We haven't been instructed to pray for the people determined to give theirselves to idol worship, just to be sure they are told of the One True God.

Scripture talks about false Gods and following them. There is no similarity at ALL beween the God of the jews, who is the same God as Christ talks of as His FATHER, and the God the Muslims have created who is man made.

As far as denying Christ, I wonder at how the Jews stick so to this and conclude it is part of God's plan and I am to let it alone in my mind. I follow scripture in Romans to conclude this. But to deny the Jews their faith in the very same God we have, the one they pray to with the very same prayer we use, is sacrilege. Before the time that Christ lived with us as a man, they were using a prayer we call the amidah. If you compare this prayer to the one Christ told us to sample out prayers after, you will see it is a longer version of our prayer.

lol. The OT would lead them to Christ. Abraham did not have the law. nor did Moses. nor did Adam and Eve, or Abel. But they had Gods promise as a redeemer.

Isreal spent most of their history following pegan Gods. When they were allowed back in. they twisted this to following and adding laws to the laws God gave them. They thought these laws made them right with God. thus why they rejected Christ when He came.

if you do not think you NEED a redeemer. you will never look for him. That is why the jews are blind today. they are looking for a king, when they do not realise, they need a redeemer first!

 

[PeteWaldo]

Please accept my apologies, Pete?
Been a bit ill lately, and am more impatient than usual.
Off to see the doc.
Thanks for your patience.

No problem pm. It is quite common and understandable, since the traditional historicist approach became virtually non-existent in the church over the last century, so you had good reason to make that presumption. There are only 4 approaches to eschatology, though I don't count "Idealism" as I have never found anyone that holds it. That leaves preterism, futurism, and the traditional historicist approach.

Yet futurists and preterisis must each believe the other to be virtually 100% in error regarding their understanding of Revelation after chapter 3. Even more amazingly both pop-eschatologies necessarily preclude a virtual unanimity of today's church from even considering that Muhammad could be THE false prophet, and his Islamic kingdom "beast" of revelation 13 and the final foe of God's people.

Precludes them from even considering 1,900 years of Christian era history in fulfillment of prophecy.

This even as the false prophet Muhammad's followers are commanded to conquer all kingdoms, and subjugate all people, to DISbelieving the crucifixion of Christ, DENYING the Son of God, and REJECTING His shed blood, as articles of faith in Muhammad.
Who commit the most egregious - and only unforgivable sin in Islam - if they were to confess that Jesus is the Son of God or even pray in Jesus name. While child rape or cold-blooded mass murder are forgivable.

Isn't that interesting?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So a couple decades after the cross Paul wrote:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And Gentiles have been coming to Christ for the last nearly 2,000 years, yet you suggest that it was over and done with in the first century?

it would not matter. Are you saying there will be a time when no more gentiles will get saved? are you serious????

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No need since I am not a futurist, nor do I expect a millennial reign of Christ on earth, since my view is amillennial. I apply the traditional historicist approach - uniformly - to all bible prophecy. I don't buy into the pop-jesuit inventions of futurism or preterism that came into vogue in the 19th and 20th centuries.

ya just went further down the line of unbelievability

God does not keep his promises either.. thanks..................

 

[Abiding]

No problem pm. It is quite common and understandable, since the traditional historicist approach became virtually non-existent in the church over the last century, so you had good reason to make that presumption. There are only 4 approaches to eschatology, though I don't count "Idealism" as I have never found anyone that holds it. That leaves preterism, futurism, and the traditional historicist approach.

Yet futurists and preterisis must each believe the other to be virtually 100% in error regarding their understanding of Revelation after chapter 3. Even more amazingly both pop-eschatologies necessarily preclude a virtual unanimity of today's church from even considering that Muhammad could be THE false prophet, and his Islamic kingdom "beast" of revelation 13 and the final foe of God's people.

Precludes them from even considering 1,900 years of Christian era history in fulfillment of prophecy.

This even as the false prophet Muhammad's followers are commanded to conquer all kingdoms, and subjugate all people, to DISbelieving the crucifixion of Christ, DENYING the Son of God, and REJECTING His shed blood, as articles of faith in Muhammad.
Who commit the most egregious - and only unforgivable sin in Islam - if they were to confess that Jesus is the Son of God or even pray in Jesus name. While child rape or cold-blooded mass murder are forgivable.

Isn't that interesting?

that goes back to another jesuit invention

 

[PeteWaldo]

it would not matter. Are you saying there will be a time when no more gentiles will get saved? are you serious????

That's what suggestion that it was all over and done with in the first century says.
Obviously I believe that time is yet in the future.

 

[Abiding]

That's what suggestion that it was all over and done with in the first century says.
Obviously I believe that time is yet in the future.

explain..................

 

[PeteWaldo]

No need since I am not a futurist, nor do I expect a millennial reign of Christ on earth, since my view is amillennial. I apply the traditional historicist approach - uniformly - to all bible prophecy. I don't buy into the pop-jesuit inventions of futurism or preterism that came into vogue in the 19th and 20th centuries.

ya just went further down the line of unbelievability

God does not keep his promises either.. thanks..................

That can only mean you are unfamiliar with how preterism and futurism came to be found in the modern church. Lots of material available online. While certainly not a definitive source you can start with these wikipedia articles.
Jesuit Luis Alcazar
Luis del Alcázar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jesuit Francisco Ribera
Francisco Ribera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[PeteWaldo]

explain..................

Since as he indicated Gentiles are still coming to Christ, then that fulness referenced, would not have yet come.

 

[Abiding]

Pete i dont have a problem with traditional historicist. Although in studying it i came
to several problems which didnt surprise me since all views have some deficiencies.
So im not here to wrestle with that. Already did my homework on Alcazar and ribera
not so sure that i believe the whole truth is told...i just cant tell sometimes for sure
whos for real and whose an agent for what side these days

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That can only mean you are unfamiliar with how preterism and futurism came to be found in the modern church. Lots of material available online. While certainly not a definitive source you can start with these wikipedia articles.
Jesuit Luis Alcazar
Luis del Alcázar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jesuit Francisco Ribera
Francisco Ribera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. I do not get my beliefs from history outside scripture or wikepedia
2. I get it from Scripture.

why do people want to ignroe scripture now and continue to go to history./.

news flash. THE JEWS DID THIS< AND THEY SCREWED UP!

 

[Abiding]

Since as he indicated Gentiles are still coming to Christ, then that fulness referenced, would not have yet come.

Fulness in the sense of full blessings in Christ and "come in" to the body the Church in status and blessing.
I dont think the word used was to intend a number or the last gentile. The gentiles were not even accepted
they were abused by judiazers and other problems until Paul and the Apostles received revelation that they were
twain one new man and there was no difference.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's what suggestion that it was all over and done with in the first century says.
Obviously I believe that time is yet in the future.

I believe there will NEVER be a time that no gentile will get saved.. so it can't be that interpretation. unless we say there will be a time when no more gentiles will ever be saved again. Not buying it. Not scriptural. Never has happened in the history of the earth, never will happen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

have a two hour drive to get back home.. will jump back in when I get home

 

[Abiding]

My thoughts are that people dont understand at all why the jews were hardened
until the gentiles came in then seeing they missed the boat got jealous and came
back and grafted back in. To say to this day they are partially blind to me sets
up a ton of bad eschatology and leads into the end time game. Oh well

 

[Abiding]

have a two hour drive to get back home.. will jump back in when I get home

ill hold on to your plate of cookies, surely you can trust me