Catholic's Arent Real Christians

Some of you briefly talked about doctrine above. This is another thing my friend and I talk about and disagree on. After reading the Bible it showed how the Jews were so fixated on religious texts that they seemed to miss the point of what God wanted from and for us entirely. When Jesus came he flipped everything upside down for the Jewish leaders and the standard belief system for everybody. While he studied the religious texts, knew them, taught them and honored them he came to make things new so that we could let go of rigid customs. This is why I don't use the word "doctrine" in my vocabulary with my faith. I would explain more on this but it kind of dances around the original topic... and I have a bus to catch in five minutes!!

When you explain how you and Jesus relate, that is sharing. When a professional scholar/writer does it for everybody, it's theology. When a pastor tells his church to accept what the scholar says as true, it's doctrine. Notice, Jesus' only contribution to this whole process is relating to people? The people make the rest of it up themselves.

Well the difference is that anyone who sees others for what their fruit is, and are truly spiritual..have discernment and do not worry about the external look. As far as other matters, i hope everyone knows that i am not saying that all catholics are saved..many of them are not, but many protestants are not..i beleive we can get caught up in whatever rich church heritage and tradition and identity and never truly have a born again new birth experience..so i say this to the protestant as well as to the catholic..

Are you truly placing your trust in Jesus? What do you do with Jesus? no..i am not saying switch churches, church membership cannot save you..what i am asking is..have you placed your trust in him and seek to walk with God? If so, you will have fruit..and that is possible whether you are catholic or not..yes there are things i very much disagree with..praying the rosary, confessing to a priest(you could if you felt lead to,but it should never be an obligation, maybe you feel a need to confess to a dear friend/accountability partner?, just saying),praying to saints, the overemphasis of Mary,and i know many catholics assume we non catholics hate Mary, some might, but most do not..that is the assumption that is not founded really..

but either way, Its what you do with Jesus that matters, more than what church you belong to..ive been to baptist churches where most everyone there were dead,dry and fruitless..so, the affiliation with the catholic church does not necessarily condemn, just like affiliation with a protestant church is not what saves you..

You got to remember that the Pharasees and scribes believed in God and were very strict when
obeying the Law. But Jesus told them: Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your
sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
So, belief in God, one God, doesn't save anyone. Jesus said, I'm the way. Once saved, the believer
gets the Holy Spirit. You understand that? The believer GETS the Holy Spirit. God is with that
person. Christ Jesus is with that person and will NEVER leave nor forsake them.
Now why is there a line of people standing between the individual and Jesus? That is Mary, patron
saints, guardian angels, ordained priest, etc...? Will my prayers have greater weight with God if
Mary co-signs it? Answer: NO God will not accept that abomination. You can only attempt to
contact these people through the spiritual and with God, that is a huge "NO NO". The believer is
to only talk with God in the spiritual. Asking someone to pray for you, is in the physical, and not
spiritual. But Mary, Patron saints, angels, you can not get to them except through the spiritual.
And God will not allow anyone to contact Him except through Jesus.

Faith and trust. WHere is the trust? Individual prayer is serial, like lights in a serial connection.
If one light burns out or removed, they all go out because the connection is broken. The believers
serial connection is: Person - Jesus - Father To put ANYTHING between them breaks the
connection. The body prays in parallel, that is like vanity lights in a bathroom. Remove one light
and the rest still work. The body (church) needs to be of the same mind and that is the parallel, so
bringing up issues to pray about, has the body in the same mind. The issues are communication in the
physical. But the believer needs to beware of where their faith is placed. If the believer feels
someone else will get God to act for them, rather than their own prayer, the faith is in the other
person. I hardly ever ask anyone to pray for me. They can pickup on my problems on their own
and pray if they want, but I have faith in my own prayers more than anyone elses. I WILL ask people
to pray about other issues, which is the parallel. But for my own life, I take it through Jesus to the
Father, serial. And you got to remember, how do we really know who is saved and who isn't?
You may ask someone to pray for you that isn't saved. Hows that going to work out?

Walking with the Lord or with His posse? As I said, the believer HAS the Holy Spirit. Jesus wont leave
the believer. The believer doesn't need a posse. Now, for the sake of argument, say you could
contact Mary with a prayer,, what would she do with it? YOU HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. She would
take the prayer and hand it right the the Holy Spirit IN YOU. Many people acknowledge Jesus, but
that don't cut it. A simple reading of the OT shows the Jews STILL burnt offerings to Jehovah
while playing the pagan. Did He accept this practice? Did He say, "Well, as long as they still worship
Me and offer burnt offerings to Me, they can have their Baal worship"? When the Babylonians
defeated them, the Jews learned otherwise. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is the way. Jesus is
God in the flesh. That is just quoting scripture and any atheist can do that. But when the
person starts contacting or praying in the spiritual to anyone other that the Father, through Jesus,
the person is worshipping Baals. It is simple paganism masked with Christian terminology.
I'm sorry, but they just want to acknowledge Jesus and keep a line of people separating them from
Him. There can NOT be any separation. The believer walks through the valley of the shadow of
death with the Lord and the Lord only.
Psa 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for
thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
I see no room for Mary, saints, angels, and priest. A person can NOT develop a relationship with the
Lord by using "go betweens." If anyone speaks to angels or patron saints, or Mary, THAT is where
the relationship is being cultivated.

The concept of attempting to be christian while at the same time not accepting the Deity of Christ..from what i have heard. There are pentecostals there that are 'oneness' but sadly, like the mormons and jehovahs witnesses..are false witnesses. If we lose the deity of Christ, christianity ceases to exist.

My sincere apologies for not making it exceedingly clear in my posts in this thread...

When I referred to the "Catholic churh", I meant the 'governmental' organization - "the hierarchy" / "the papacy" / "the Vatican" - apart from the people who are its members.

"Sorry if that was not completely clear."



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I do not agree with many of the teachings of catholicism but i truly believe a person can be saved in the catholic church, some for various reasons choose to stay in the church. I know one who was saved in a pentecostal church who returned to catholicism, i am not sure why he did other than family all being of this faith expression. When i renounced catholicism it was really hard for my mom to accept, because she did not understand and took it personally..over time she has been supportive, and my not attacking her or saying she is 'of the devil' as some here would say has helped keep dialogue open. I have been in a journey/pilgrimage recently as far as my faith, having discovered wesleyan arminian holiness and it has changed my life(nobody ever told me it was possible to live for God, I was always told to simply appeal to grace, yet never given application for right living after appealing to grace)

One of the scariest moments I've had since I became a Christian 3 years ago was when I, knowing what the answer would be, asked my sister-in-law ( a Roman Catholic ) which she would chose if she won a guided tour vacation to the Holy Land or Rome.

She refrained from answering. That, I think, is a shocking indictment of what people are lead to believe is important.

Is it better to walk in the footsteps of Jesus and John and Paul, or see a building built 1500 years later?
It's a no-brainer in my mind but I only believe what the Bible says.

What is odd is that the Church of England (with which most here associate indirectly I expect) is almost identical tot he Church of Rome.
Expensive priestly robes are worn by the Archbishop of Canterbury (as they are by the Pope)
The Church of England is rich - as is the Roman Catholic church. Both own land and have large amounts of money.
They both believe many doctrines that were not Apostolic but postulated later when the church of Rome was already formed and over a hundred years after the last part of the Bible was completed (i.e. man-made doctrines).

So the question should perhaps be, not so much is the RC church Christian, but how much of Christianity is left an ANY church?

Depends on which 'church' you look at..
the charismatics and pentecostals focus on tongues..gifts..and signs and wonders..
the calvinists only appeal to election,grace, and theological position and point to their reformation identity..
the baptists..well they are all over the place..
the non denoms seek to entertain and be 'relevant'..
there are good churches out there..you may have to hunt long and hard and keep knocking..keep searching...
I found a good one it took me a very long time..but alas i found my home! It is a place with a systematic theology..with an emphasis on living for God, biblical application on doing so..and a pastor with a heart of a pastor(humble..holy..and available)

I personally wish that some here would not see the catholic as their enemy..I will be honest..the nicest ones on here have for the most part(at least nice to me..most humble,least arrogant..) ARE the catholics!

OFM,rock..etc..
The proud ones are the high calvinists,kjvonlyists..the charismatics/pentecostals..etc..

Just going by observation..but if we are to go by simple fruit of kindness,meekness..gentleness..loving..patient..
The protestants here for the most part are lacking this..at least here very much so..

Not this protestant.

Well hopefully you are not the only one..but sadly the vitriol here is high and non stop. I do disagree with much about catholicism..but i also disagree with much of what many protestants believe and live like and appeal to..
but I do not hate them..

Catholics most certainly are Christians, from the layman in the pew to the Pope in Rome. They are doctrinally and ecclesiastically heretical (sorry if you folks don't like that word, read it literally as 'opinioned' if you want) but their core belief in the saving power of faith by the Lord Jesus Christ is most definitely a Christian one.

I recommend listening to R.C. Sproul's Roman Catholicism lecture series (first one is free, and many full lectures on that site are free).

Many of the Protestant criticisms of Catholicism stem from a caricaturing and almost deliberate ignorance. Not that there aren't serious problems with Catholic doctrine, but they are not guilty of the usual ridiculous accusations put upon them (i.e., they DO NOT believe that works save, and they DO NOT worship Mary).

Also, they do not call themselves the 'Roman' Catholic church. That is a Protestant nickname.

Mary is the god of the RCC and they worship her with tremendous zeal. This is the belief and
acceptance of the rosary:


Rosary
The 15 Promises

(Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan by the Blessed Virgin)

1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive powerful graces.
2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary.
3. The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.
6. Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.
8. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.
9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
10. The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.
11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary.
12. All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.
14. All who recite the Rosary are my children, and brothers and sisters of my only Son, Jesus Christ.
15. Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.

Benefits of the Rosary

1. It gradually gives us a perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. It purifies our souls, washing away sin.
3. It gives us victory over all our enemies.
4. It makes it easy for us to practice virtue.
5. It sets us on fire with love of Our Lord.
6. It enriches us with graces and merits.
7. It supplies us with what is needed to pay all our debts to God and to our fellow men; and finally, it obtains all kinds of graces for us from Almighty God.

Blessings of the Rosary

1. Sinners are forgiven.
2. Souls that thirst are refreshed.
3. Those who are fettered have their bonds broken.
4. Those who weep find happiness.
5. Those who are tempted find peace.
6. The poor find help.
7. Religious are reformed.
8. Those who are ignorant are instructed.
9. The living learn to overcome pride.
10. The dead (the Holy Souls) have their pains eased by suffrages.

Just read it all. It ALL blasphemy! It all points to Mary as the power and grace giver, sinner forgiver,
wisdom giver, the intercessor, the Mother of the saved. Its all 100% blasphemy. It 100% pagan.
Anyone praying the rosary is pagan and worshipping Mary. Jesus and Jehovah are just token gods
at this point. They are mentioned because they HAVE to be there in order to classify the RCC as
"christian". It doesn't take a NASA Eng with a golden slide rule to see where the true faith lies, and it
isn't with Jesus, but with Mary.

lol, I am not even getting into this debate.

I believe you already accomplished that in post #74.



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Actually of the 3 Catholic schools in my town, two are called "Catholic School" and one is called "Roman Catholic School".
So, in fact, some DO call themselves Roman Catholic.

The adoration and worship of Rome as the centre of Christianity is clear.
The reason Protestants protest (it goes with the name) is that Rome is not God's Kingdom on earth and never will be.
More Catholics visit the vatican than visit the Holy Land by a factor of hundreds if not thousands.
If protestants visit somewhere based upon their religion it is mostly the Holy Land (I can only think of the pilgrimage to Canterbury or other such old/defunct ideas in comparison).

btw I don't consider myself a Protestant or Catholic - for me the Protestants kept too many of the false bits of Christianity when they split away.

Anyway, let's keep it factual.
And let's not assume the Anglicans are real Christians either - as they still adhere to some post-Apostolic ideas and practices.

Well, this is seen from my own experience;

First of all, I used to being a person that was very anti Catholics for a time. Although I was baptized as an Catholic as a baby, I was never much raised up into Catholicism. This somewhat changed when I was going to congratulate some neighbours of mine that just had got their first child. I knew these were Catholics, and I had noticed they seemed very distant with me, so my plan was just to come at the door, congratulating them and then go back to my appartment. Once the husband opened the door and I said I wanted to congratulate them with their child, he invited me straight in. This suprised me very much.

I sat there with them, we also somehow came into talks about the bible and faith. They were true Catholics, and did respect and look up to Mary, but they also agreed on how important it was with Jesus Salvation too. What I also noticed from sitting in there is that there were such a great presence of peace in the room. I just knew that these were people that loves God too. This made me very happy, but this also learned me to not being too quick with judging other people's faith in God. God will not judge us from what churches we have gone to, He will look to everyone's hearts.

There are some things I do think is good into the Catholic faith, but there are also a lot I do not agree with. But when it comes to Beleivers of Christ Jesus, I think we all should be careful in judging too quick when looking at what churches they come from.

As far as all Anglicans..id say this is a strong statement to make..Do they believe in all the basics? Last time i checked they did, Btw..John Wesley, a hero of the faith..was an anglican..so i do believe some are saved..
Now if we were talking about Jehovah's witnesses,or Mormons..i would agree..

Seventh Day Adventists, i am undecided if they can be saved, they keep much of Jewish law and are almost Jewish in their practices, but it may be possible some might be saved in that sect..Jehovahs witnesses and Mormons most likely are not because they have another Bible,another Gospel, and a different Jesus..