Paul And James in Total, Complete Agreement On Works

I know that good works are produced out of faith and I also know that we are saved by grace through faith, not works.

Faith that trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation and faith that remains "alone" (barren of works) are two separate alone's in connection with two different things. When you hear a genuine believer say that we are saved through "faith IN CHRIST alone," they are not saying that we are saved by the "kind" of faith that remains alone "barren of works" (James 2:14). Saving faith results in good works, so it's not alone in that sense but it's the faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ as the all sufficient means of our salvation part of the equation that "alone" saves you as the instrumental means. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of faith that saves and is not dead, but works are not the means of our salvation.

People can do "things" without faith, but it's not genuine good works that are produced by unbelievers. Apart from the transforming regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, these works are simply conjured up through the flesh and are not fruit of the Spirit.

Genuine faith is rooted in Christ and results in doing good works. Dead faith that is not rooted in Christ does not result in doing good works. Only those who have been saved by grace through faith are created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works.

This person says/claims they have faith (James 2:14) but they demonstrate by the lack of works (example - James 2:15-16) that they have an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. Where is the evidence by works that they really do have faith? The absence of evidence can be construed as evidence of absence.

If you do nothing then you demonstrate that you have an empty profession of faith, a dead faith and not living faith in Christ.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. What did Peter say in Acts 3:19? Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism? What did Peter say in Acts 10:43? Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. *What happened to baptism?

Those that gladly received his word (through repentance/belief) were (afterwards) baptized. In Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.

Amen! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will not saved, not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get baptized and you will be saved. Water baptism follows belief and conversion.

All in the house heard the same message. Nothing added to or taken away from verse 31.

They were baptized AFTER they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and were saved, just as they received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ in Acts 11:17 and were saved BEFORE they received water baptism (Acts 10:43-47).

You need to rightly divide the word of truth and harmonize scripture with scripture instead of cherry picking your favorite verses that suit your doctrine. Allow me to show you how it's done:

In Acts 2:38, repentance is the means of receiving forgiveness and baptism is done on the basis of the remission of sins which they already received through repentance.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43-47 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 15:8,9 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*

If they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then they are saved and have already repented in the process of changing their minds and choosing to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You are adding your own assumptions to the text, yet believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved is the message here in Acts 16:31. Not get baptized and you will be saved, so your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 does not negate Acts 16:31.

I am not the one who keeps saying that faith made perfect or complete by works means saved by works.

I'm not confused, but you seem to get confused very easily. All along I meant that we produce works by faith when I said that faith produces works. It's out of faith that these works are produced. I thought you would have figured that out and didn't realize you would misunderstand and think that I meant faith produces works independent of us.

Your implication is that UNTIL works are produced, faith remains dead. That means a person is condemned UNTIL they produce works. God saved me the very moment that I placed my faith in Christ for salvation. The good works that followed my conversion and continue to follow are the fruit of my salvation and not the root of it. My faith is in Christ and not in works for salvation. Jesus doesn't need supplements to help Him save us.

I already called on God several years ago when I repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and was saved. You don't want to go down the road of having your hands full of your works and refusing to take hold of Christ through faith. James said faith without works is dead and gave an example of a good work in verses 15-16. As I have said all along, James DOES NOT teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple. But you want to complicate what he said by saying faith is dead UNTIL works are produced and then it becomes a living, saving faith. Cart before the horse. Your theology does not align with Ephesians 2:5-10.

Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." His purpose doesn't change the fact that the thief was saved. The thief is not in torment in Hades, but went to Abraham's bosom.

I showed you that genuine faith results in good works (dead faith results in no works) so it's not without works.

Genuine faith does not remain alone.

I already knew that. You have showed me nothing but your continued confusion.

That faith will have works but upon the very moment of conversion, one has not yet given a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body (James 2:15-16) which doesn't mean it's dead until we do. Faith must be alive in Christ FIRST before good works can result from it (Ephesians 2:5-10).

That's what James said in verse 14. SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith which doesn't mean he really has faith but only SAYS/CLAIMS he does but lacks the evidence that he really does.

I already know that (Romans 10:17).

When did I say I do nothing? There is nothing that we can do and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us. Saving faith trusts in Christ for salvation and not in our works. Without faith, there is nothing you can do to please God (Hebrews 11:6) no matter how many works that you conjure up through the flesh.

In the prepositional phrase, "for the remission or YOUR sins," the pronoun "your" is second person plural. The effect of this change from second person plural to third person singular, and then back again to second person plural, shows that the phrase connects directly with the command to "repent." Essentially what you have is - "You (plural) repent for the forgiveness of your (plural) sins, and let each one (singular) of you be baptized (singular)." Or, "You all repent for the forgiveness of all of your sins, and let each one of you be baptized." No babble. You just don't ears to hear.

False. Faith "implied in repentance" is conversion. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism? Not even mentioned. The new direction of this change of mind in repentance is faith.

Mormons use this verse to justify their false teaching of baptizing the dead.

Repentance precedes belief/faith. Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. You reverse the order of repentance/faith in receiving salvation. Water baptism follows and is a work and we are not saved by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

Acts 16:31 is not simply my theory, it's scripture. Why do you reject this verse?

They believed after they heard the word - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will saved. They heard, they believed, were saved and as a result, received water baptism.

Why do you reject the words "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved?"

What they spoke afterwards did not alter the message BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND YOU WILL BE SAVED. Nothing about getting baptized there to be saved. They were baptized AFTER they believed and were saved. Simple.

Seriously? Are you really that delusional? The message was BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND YOU WILL BE SAVED. Nothing further added to the message in order to be saved.

So Acts 16:31 is not God's word? Do you really believe that? Did those that were in his house receive a different message that negated Acts 16:31?

It's actually you who assumes things in your delusional world of unbelief.

The natural man can only understand natural H20. There is no switching orders or baptismal regeneration. Your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 does not negate Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31. Period.

That statement is the epitome of irony!

LOL! You don't speak for the Lord.

I understand scripture just fine and I don't follow YOUR false doctrine of works salvation.

Context. SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but has no works. 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 18 I will show you my faith by my works.

I have properly harmonized scripture with scripture in order to come to the correct conclusion, you have not. You force Acts 2:38 to teach water salvation and then you distort Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31 and try and force these verses to "conform" to your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38. That's called flawed hermeneutics.

So you admit that you believe James is teaching salvation by works which means you admit that you believe salvation is by works! I knew it! So you "do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" but "on water and works." It's time for you to repent and believe the gospel.

Notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous." Made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Works bear out the justification that comes by faith. The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22. Since you remain in unbelief, the truth will continue to go right over your head as the gospel remains hid to you.

Garbage? Weasel my way out? LOL! What a joke!

I have been saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS as Paul clearly stated in Ephesians 2:8,9. My faith is not "without" works. I have shown my faith by my works (James 2:15-18). You still JUST DON'T GET IT.

If our faith is genuine, then good works will follow. If we say/claim we have faith but no works follow, then we have an empty profession of faith. I put my faith in Christ by trusting exclusively IN HIM for salvation. Not in water and works. Your faith is in "water and works" and not Christ alone. When we place our faith in Christ for salvation, we repent "change our minds" about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and about any form of self-trust in human works, religious tradition, etc. and the new direction of this change of mind is trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. You still need to repent and believe the gospel. Water baptism follows repentance/faith/conversion (Acts 3:19; 10:43-47).

Yes, created in Christ Jesus (saved by grace through faith, not works) but UNTO/FOR good works. We are NOT saved by good works but FOR good works. Is the truth sinking in yet?

I didn't refuse to follow the Lord's command (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26). I did not refuse to be water baptized AFTER repentance/faith/conversion either. The Lord's command is BELIEVE or condemned (John 3:18) not baptized or condemned.

We are born again when we believe the gospel. Not your perverted gospel of water and works salvation, but trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) as the all sufficient means of your salvation (Romans 1:16). Are you ready to repent and BELIEVE the gospel? Don't allow human pride to keep you from coming to Christ. Quit trusting in your works to save you and place your faith in Jesus Christ as the all sufficient means of your salvation today.

that is not what the scripture teaches...it does not say faith results in works ...it says faith without works is dead....you teach that a faith without works to save you ...then produce works..




while it was alone what was it? (dead...)

I already knew that. You have showed me nothing but your continued confusion.
It means if you don't do it is dead... if you were not buried with him by baptism into death...how can you be raised up from the dead...
Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.




bro do you believe faith comes by hearing? if you do then you would know the man had faith but no works...

no one is adding or supplementing...just obeying...can you please God with a faith without works??? go look at the parable of the talents


so according to you Peter is telling them to be baptised to receive the HS? because you have to finish the line...and it would be..."You all repent for the forgiveness of all of your sins, and let each one of you be baptized. and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

is this what you are saying....or do you now discard the rest of the line....
[SUP]
37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


he did not mention gift of the HS either...but he did mention...

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
you will now argue that Jesus Christ and the HS are not one and same...but here it is in scripture...just as baptism is conversion...



you are also using it to promote your false doctrine...
did you repent before you heard the word?...is that possible?...faith comes by hearing...so you repented before you heard the word to get faith?...why am I even discussing this with you.... you are set in your ignorance...come off your high horse and trust God and not doctrine of man...

I don't reject the verse I read the scripture so I don't miss vs 32 & 33
perfect example of ignorance

when you allow the HS to harmonize scripture for you ..only then will you understand...as it is right now you are leaning on your own understanding...

[/QUOTE]
if that is true then devils are born again too

Matthew 13:23 - But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. What were the results of the seed (word) that was received on the good ground (with a noble and good heart)? Bears fruit and produces: some a hundred, some sixty, some thirty. This fruit was not produced instantaneously upon conversion but these are the results of genuine faith that takes root.

James said faith without works is dead AFTER he said, 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? James did not say faith is dead until this good work is accomplished. This good work is not accomplished instantaneously upon conversion and that is not what James meant by faith without works is dead. Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved, 8 THROUGH FAITH, 9 NOT WORKS, 10 created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good work. Not made alive in works, but made alive together with Christ by grace through faith, then the works are produced from a living faith, not a dead faith.

Upon the very moment of conversion of being saved by grace through faith before having any time whatsoever to produce works yet, NO it's not dead. It's alive in Christ. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. James 2:15-16 is not talking about instantaneous production upon conversion.

You already knew that genuine faith does not remain alone, yet in your continued confusion, you interpret James 2:14 to mean that this hypothetical person actually has faith and you disregard says/claims he has faith, you also believe that faith without works is dead in regards to James 2:15-16 means faith remains dead until these works are produced, so you have works being produced from a dead faith and salvation by works, which is no salvation at all. What a mess!

It means if you don't do it, you demonstrate that your faith is dead. If you do it, you demonstrate that your faith is alive. We show our faith by our works, not establish our faith by our works.

Spirit baptism is the reality and water baptism is the picture of the reality, but not the cause.

Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) 8 THROUGH FAITH.

Water baptism is only a PICTURE of being buried with Him into death, not the reality. Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs “through faith.” Christians are “buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead” (Colossians 2:12). How did you get on baptism again? Works salvationists all seem to be obsessed with water baptism.

Faith comes by hearing and works come by faith. Works are not produced from a dead faith. Having genuine faith but no works are ever produced is an oxymoron. You continue to IGNORE what James said in verse 14 - What use is it, my brethren, if someone says/claims he has faith but he has no works? This is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith. This verse continues to be a major stumbling block for you that causes you to misinterpret the rest of the chapter as well. The natural man cannot understand.

You are adding works to "salvation through faith, not works," which means you are supplementing. Without faith there is no obeying. There is just bad fruit from a bad tree. What about the parable of the talents? Works salvationists are usually quick to reference that parable, including Roman Catholics and Mormons.

In the prepositional phrase, "for the remission or YOUR sins," the pronoun “your” is second person plural. The effect of this change from second person plural to third person singular, and then back again to second person plural, shows that the phrase connects directly with the command to “repent.” Essentially what you have is - “You (plural) repent for the forgiveness of your (plural) sins, and let each one (singular) of you be baptized (singular).” Or, “You all repent for the forgiveness of all of your sins, and let each one of you be baptized.” So in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. Now please explain to me how your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 is in harmony with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31, unless you prefer to discard these verses.

Acts 10:45 - mentions the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:47 - mentions received the Holy Spirit BEFORE BAPTISM (47-48). Acts 11:17 says God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ... BEFORE WATER BAPTISM...Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Acts 15:8 - 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

So you are going to completely ignore Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31 for the sake of your pet doctrine? Peter said REPENT and be converted (Acts 3:19), not be baptized and be converted. The natural man just cannot understand.

That would be you.

I heard the word, then I repented and believed the gospel in that order.

I've been asking myself the same question, "why am I even discussing this with you?" You are set in your pride and ignorance and refuse to repent and believe the gospel. I do trust God (saved by grace through faith, not works) and not man (saved by works). You need to let go of your works and take hold of Christ through FAITH.

I don't miss vs. 32 & 33, but I don't allow those verses to alter the message in verse 31, (and in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18) as you do because you are blind to the truth.

That statement is the EPITOME of irony! Look in the mirror and repeat that again to yourself.

The demons believe in their head (not in their heart) that God raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9). They do not believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of their salvation. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. HUGE DIFFERENCE! Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Because of your unbelief, you still have not figured this out. You need to repent and believe the gospel. Then the blinders will be removed and you will be able to see clearly. I will continue to pray for you.

All of that, and you cannot get past the fact that "faith" is a "work" (εργου της πιστεως "ergon (work) ho (of) pistis (faith)"

1 Thessalonians 1:3 (WHNU)
αδιαλειπτως μνημονευοντες υμων του εργου της πιστεως και του κοπου της αγαπης και της υπομονης της ελπιδος του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου εμπροσθεν του θεου και πατρος ημων

1 Thessalonians 1:3 (KJV)
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

the word "produced" and "by" are NOT in the TR, WHNU or Byz so the NIV which uses the words is a interpretation not a translation, written with a slant toward your man made doctrine, not the doctrine of Christ.

There is nothing for me to get past. Faith is not just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Why is that hard for you to understand?

We are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation. Multiple acts of obedience which follow are works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. This is not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT because your church doctrine has taught you that salvation is by works.

I didn't use the NIV.

Matthew 13:23 (NKJV) - But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. The NCV says produces fruit.

Matthew 13:23 (NAS) - And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

Matthew 13:23 - (NRS) - But as for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.

you cannot take the "work" out of εργου (ergon), no matter what version of Greek text you use, 1 Thess. 1:3 says "work of faith":

G2041 ἔργον ergon (er'-gon) n.
1. toil (as an effort or occupation)
2. (by implication) an act
[from a primary (but obsolete) ergo "to work"]

faith is something you have to work at, it is "works" we are not moving off this scripture until you accept this fact, you and others always try and jump to another verse where Paul is calling the Mosaic Law "works" and THAT "works" wont save you, there is no argument there, but it is by faith, yes it is by faith, but faith IS a work, you cannot be saved without FIRST righteous "works" (faith) and then CONTINUE GROWING IN your "faith" (producing more (other) righteous works).

I am not trying to take "work" out of ergon. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. You don't seem to make a distinction between faith and works.

Work "ergon" is a different Greek word from faith "pistis" - persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

We grow in our faith, but faith is not "works." Faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation. Works which follow are works. Prior to my conversion, I didn't understand the difference either. The natural man cannot understand.

Accept what fact? That faith "is" works? That is not a fact. Faith is faith and works are works. You can't tell the difference?

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? You read Ephesians 2:8,9 as if Paul said, For by grace you have been saved through faith and good works not of the law, just not specific works of the law. This is the same bogus argument that Roman Catholics and Mormons use in an attempt to get around the truth and accommodate their "works based" false gospel as well.

Faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Faith is clearly not a work that merits our salvation. Through faith in Christ, we are completely trusting in (Another's work) Christ's finished work of redemption. Christ receives all the merit for our salvation. Multiple acts of obedience/good works which follow faith are WORKS and we are NOT saved by works but through FAITH IN CHRIST.

You cannot produce righteous works without FIRST being saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10). You have it backwards. Faith is faith and works are works. Until you iron this out you will remain in UNBELIEF.

Believers continue growing in their faith and continue to produce works of righteousness "out of faith," (result, consequence of faith) but faith is not these works of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5). SAVED THROUGH FAITH, NOT WORKS. You need to let go of your works and take hold of Christ through faith. It's obvious that your faith is in works and not exclusively in Christ for salvation.

Again, remove "work" out of the scripture that says "work", 1 Thess 1:3 says "work of faith", faith describes the work, the work done is that of faith, just like if one says "the work cement" means that one works with cement, unless one "works cement" there is no cement, when you or anyone goes to "work" in the morning, it does not describe what you do for work, by saying "you work of cement", does not mean because the cement will set by its self that it is not a "work" or require "works".

"work of faith" means faith is what they were working to "do".

when you do the "work of faith" (1 Thess 1:3) it becomes easier, you like it, it becomes less like work, you may teach others, be become experienced at your "work of faith" just like any other work.

The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" faith. You are trying to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith. You make no distinction between faith and works that follow as a result of our faith.

No need for faulty human logic. Work "of" faith does not equate to the work is faith. The work is the fruit of faith, not the essence of faith.

"work of faith" means this work is a result or consequence of their faith. You simply define faith as works and make "no distinction" between faith "and" works. The thief on the cross died before having the opportunity to accomplish multiple acts of obedience/works after his conversion so would you say that faith "is" these multiple acts of obedience/works and the thief was unable to perform them so he didn't have faith?

Again, "work of faith" means this work is a result or consequence of their faith. The work is done "out of" faith. You error by saying faith in essence "is" this work and we are "saved by works." I remember prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I could not make a distinction between faith and works either. I erroneously understood it as faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works. But the moment that I placed my faith exclusively in Christ for salvation, the blinders were removed and I could finally understand clearly. The natural man cannot understand (1 Corinthians 2:11-14).

I had the impression James likes works more than grace.

Works and grace are like hand in glove.

how blind can one be?

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

GOD does not need to see physical work but if the faith is true we will do works that men will see.

Well we might accept the metaphor if the hand is grace and the glove is works.

But note:

But if it is by grace, it is no more of works:
otherwise grace is no more grace.

Rom 11:6 as Rom 4:5 and Eph 2:9 continued to be pulled out of all NT contexts in trying to get rid of all works which contradicts a host of verses that put obedience BEFORE salvation. Paul shows that receiving grace is based upon an obedient faith and not upon sitting and doing nothing.

Rom 11:4 "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

Rom 11:5 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

Rom 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

In Romans chapters 9, 10 and 11, nowhere in any of these chapters is Paul contrasting grace from obedience but is contrasting grace from works of merit and proves that one's physical descent does not bring salvation. In Rom 9:7-11 Paul shows that the Jews physical descent from Abraham does not mean automatic salvation for them. In Rom 10:3 Paul contrasts works of merit that does not save from obedience in submitting to the righteousness of God that does save.
And here in Rom 11 verses 4 and 5 that go with verse 6 but do not get quoted. From verse 4 Paul shows from OT times them that OBEYED God were the ones that received grace. Then in verse 5, at this present time (gospel dispensation) those that received God's grace are the ones that obey Christ's gospel (according to election of grace). Those that obey Christ are the ones that receive grace, Heb 5:9 while those that obey not the gospel, 2 Thess 1:8, do not receive grace but receive God's vengeance.

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2 Tim 1:9,"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"


No one can do his own works of merit (our works) to be saved but must submit/obey God's commandments to be saved (God's purpose and grace).

2 Tim 1:9 God's purpose and grace is "IN CHRIST JESUS". It takes obedience to be "IN CHRIST". Doing nothing will never get one in Christ.

SALVATION BY FAITH ALONE IS NOT PULLING ANYTHING OUT OF CONTEXT, BUT REITERATED OVER & OVER IN GOD'S WORD
contrary to SeaBass who saith:

The only obedience which logically precedes salvation, is obedience to this command:

What must I do to be saved?
Answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.

Salvation by grace (God's part) through faith (man's part) is not pulling from context. Romans 1-4 is full of that concept & that works do not save (not matter what kind of works is meant, even if you concoct unbiblical categories to try to distinguish works from works).

Neither can you prove from the Bible that God's grace does not precede man's works. Grace was there before creation (Ephesians 1-2).

Over & over salvation & justification are offered to man apart from obediences & works -- moreover faith is presented as the opposite pole to works.

Take a look at a little Roman & Ephesian Context.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[All them who believer, rules out any other thing essential besides believe.]

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 4:1ff

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES rules out anything essential added to faith.]

For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]


Eph

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Here disciples are told to make disciples by baptizing them, they are told to have them "observe" <-- obey all He has commanded :

Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV)
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Like it or not, Baptism by water is a command :

Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

If you are not baptized, you are not observing all things He commanded.

To know how to be saved, focus first on passages that speak about salvation or initial justification.
You say "by baptizing." Now where does the Bible say that you make disciples by baptizing? Where does the word by occur?

What leads you to think that when disciples "make disciples" that = God making salvation?

So what? They are also told if they have 2 coats to give one away & to tithe mint & cummin (or whatever).

If you have to observe all things to be saved, get ready for the Lake of Fire.

Over & over salavation is offered for just one thing on man's part, believing in Christ/having faith/trusting the Savior (who does the Saving). The evidence is too much for 1 post here.

the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 3:14-18
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 15 that
whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. 16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

The words "whosoever believeth" take away any possibility of adding anything essential to salvation besides believe.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life;

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and
believes him who sent me has eternal life.
He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may
believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that
believing ye may have life in his name.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were
ordained to eternal life believed.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them,
cleansing their hearts by faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Acts 16:31a
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, . . . .

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]