Please Interpret Matthew 5:38-48

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Elijah19

Guest
#1
#1
Recently, I attended a Sunday School lesson in my church regarding the above mentioned verse. To summarize, the text is the famous one where Jesus teaches believers to "turn the other cheek." As the Sunday School class was discussing these things, a great number of elder Christians in the group began to state that the interpretation of the verse is that Believers are to be Pacifists. This, however, seemed to contradict John 2:15 where Jesus drives out the money changers at the temple in rage with a whip of chords. Further, a number of other members in the class are both strong Christians AND Veterans of the US Military (men which I respect greatly for their strong faith, by the way). They oddly enough either stayed silent at the idea of a pacifist Christianity, and some even agreed with it, but I'm not entirely sure that the pacifist interpretation is absolutely correct.

Now before anyone says I'm trying to promote violent Christians on here, let me clarify. I believe every word which Jesus says about peace. I know it's 100% true and that Christians are called to peace. Don't doubt that one bit. I myself am a lover not a fighter by nature, but I still believe in fighting for what I love. All I'm asking is for an interpretation of the verse which explains why, on one end, Jesus talked of turning the other cheek and on the other He made a whip of chords and beat a bunch of sinners out of a temple in a rampage. Are there places where Christians can fight (or even use deadly force, as with veterans), or not? If so, where do we draw the line, since either yes or not could be risky answers here? What does "turn the other cheek" actually mean, and to what degree are we to tolerate abuse before we are permitted to make a whip of chords ourselves?
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
#3
#3
Elijah19 said:
Are there places where Christians can fight (or even use deadly force, as with veterans), or not? If so, where do we draw the line, since either yes or not could be risky answers here? What does "turn the other cheek" actually mean, and to what degree are we to tolerate abuse before we are permitted to make a whip of chords ourselves?
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Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 22:36 provided for self defense.

On another topic and verse:

Jude 1:3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

"Contend" means to nonviolently "fight" in the context of Jude 1:3. I had to add the word "nonviolently" because we should be peacemakers.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
#4
#4
It is a good question, Elijah.
I've defended the faith and defended myself. Sometimes we have to be stronger to protect myself and I can't second guess myself because I wouldn't have done anything different but should I share the guilt of those who cause problems?

So I think it is good to be slow to anger and some things are a misunderstanding and some things can be avoided with communication.

On another topic:

If man couldn't fight then there wouldn't be Christians in the military.

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
 
hornetguy

hornetguy

Senior Member
#5
Jan 18, 2016
6,660
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#5
If you look at what He said in context, He was speaking about the whole notion of "revenge".... I think He was trying to teach us the principle of forgiveness.

Our "natural man" response to being wrongly treated, whether it's at work, or someone mouthing at you in the parking lot, is to give it right back to them... to "win".
I think Jesus is teaching us to let stuff like that slide, and don't get all worked up over it. It's damaging to our well-being, and is damaging to our being witnesses of Christ to the world. (I have difficulties with this when I'm driving :eek:)

I don't think it means that we should not defend ourselves against violence, whether in our personal lives, or as citizens of our country.

A slap on the face is only a threat to your pride... let it go.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
#6
#6
hornetguy said:
Our "natural man" response to being wrongly treated, whether it's at work, or someone mouthing at you in the parking lot, is to give it right back to them... to "win".
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There are two things true in life:

1) Never getting justice.
2) Always giving it out.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#7
Jan 13, 2016
16,741
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#7
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

What do you do with this? explain it away? change it to fit our desires? force it on the Church?
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
#8
#8
John146 said:
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

What do you do with this? explain it away? change it to fit our desires? force it on the Church?
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Does it mean that I can take a moving van to your house and take all of your stuff?

Mark 12:40 They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely."
 
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John146

Senior Member
#9
Jan 13, 2016
16,741
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#9
You wouldn't get much.:) I would not enforce this doctrine on the Church, the body of Christ. I know I get a lot of push back concerning my dispensational views, but that's where I stand.

Chuckt said:
Does it mean that I can take a moving van to your house and take all of your stuff?
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G

ggs7

Guest
#10
#10
Here is some more to think about;

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
#11
#11
ggs7 said:
Here is some more to think about;

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
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What concerns me is that Christians are overrun in other countries and have become extinct.
 
Marcelo

Marcelo

Senior Member
#12
Feb 4, 2016
2,359
859
113
73
#12
1. Jesus teaches believers to "turn the other cheek";
2. Jesus drove out the money changers at the temple in rage with a whip.

The elders mentioned by Elijah19 are right: Believers are to be Pacifists.
Jesus is patient with sinners in general, but He doesn't tolerate people who make money from faith.


 
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ggs7

Guest
#13
#13
Chuckt said:
What concerns me is that Christians are overrun in other countries and have become extinct.
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I'm concerned about that too and it really upsets me :/. But I was an aggressive person before I read the bible and prayed to GOD that I would receive the mind of Christ. Now I think differently. Now I pray for the persecuted Body of Christ and support them financially through Aid agencies like Open Doors etc. I don't know what else to do. If we become vengeful are we going beyond what Christ is asking of us? I dont know
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#14
Jul 31, 2013
36,726
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#14
i think Christ's actions in the temple driving out the moneychangers are entirely consistent with His teaching that we should 'turn the other cheek' & let God handle vengeance and retaliation. here's why:

in the temple, He was angry because of what was being done to the Lord's house -- it was for the sake of the name of God being defamed that He acted, and was upset.
in the beatitudes, He is talking about personal insult and offense.

we talked a lot about 'righteous anger' and how we can be sure that we are right to be upset or to act on our anger in a couple of Bible study groups i attend in the last couple weeks. we couldn't come up with a hard and fast series of rules of thumb or guidelines -- we all agreed that listening to the Spirit was the best way to know -- but i said, and i think everyone agreed, that if we are upset for the sake of God's honor, we are right; but if we are angry for the sake of our own honor, we might or might not be, depending on the situation.
 
T

thepsalmist

Guest
#15
#15
Elijah19 said:
Recently, I attended a Sunday School lesson in my church regarding the above mentioned verse. To summarize, the text is the famous one where Jesus teaches believers to "turn the other cheek." As the Sunday School class was discussing these things, a great number of elder Christians in the group began to state that the interpretation of the verse is that Believers are to be Pacifists. This, however, seemed to contradict John 2:15 where Jesus drives out the money changers at the temple in rage with a whip of chords. Further, a number of other members in the class are both strong Christians AND Veterans of the US Military (men which I respect greatly for their strong faith, by the way). They oddly enough either stayed silent at the idea of a pacifist Christianity, and some even agreed with it, but I'm not entirely sure that the pacifist interpretation is absolutely correct.

Now before anyone says I'm trying to promote violent Christians on here, let me clarify. I believe every word which Jesus says about peace. I know it's 100% true and that Christians are called to peace. Don't doubt that one bit. I myself am a lover not a fighter by nature, but I still believe in fighting for what I love. All I'm asking is for an interpretation of the verse which explains why, on one end, Jesus talked of turning the other cheek and on the other He made a whip of chords and beat a bunch of sinners out of a temple in a rampage. Are there places where Christians can fight (or even use deadly force, as with veterans), or not? If so, where do we draw the line, since either yes or not could be risky answers here? What does "turn the other cheek" actually mean, and to what degree are we to tolerate abuse before we are permitted to make a whip of chords ourselves?
Click to expand...

Before I say anything about the verses in MATT 5 and get into turning the other cheek, I would just like to point something out about Jesus' 'moment' with the money-changers.

JOHN 2:13
When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem.14 In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money.15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.16 To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!”17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”

1)"So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle;"
....He drove the sheep and cattle out with whips and cords (not the men)?

2)"he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables."

3)"To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” "

I just want to point out that nowhere does it say that he BEAT anyone.

Even if #1 included the cattle and sheep merchants themselves ... it says He drove them out ... not that he whipped them.

 
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V

valiant

Senior Member
#16
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#16
John146 said:
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

What do you do with this? explain it away? change it to fit our desires? force it on the Church?
Click to expand...
The smiting of the cheek was common in those days as a gesture of contempt. Both Jesus and Paul were smitten on the cheek (and neither turned the other cheek),

Jesus is saying if someone treats you with contempt, do not do it back. If a private event turning the other cheek will make the person think twice. It has nothing to do with self-defence
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#17
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#17
hornetguy said:
If you look at what He said in context, He was speaking about the whole notion of "revenge".... I think He was trying to teach us the principle of forgiveness.

Our "natural man" response to being wrongly treated, whether it's at work, or someone mouthing at you in the parking lot, is to give it right back to them... to "win".
I think Jesus is teaching us to let stuff like that slide, and don't get all worked up over it. It's damaging to our well-being, and is damaging to our being witnesses of Christ to the world. (I have difficulties with this when I'm driving :eek:)

I don't think it means that we should not defend ourselves against violence, whether in our personal lives, or as citizens of our country.

A slap on the face is only a threat to your pride... let it go.
Click to expand...
The context does seem to be vengeance, not self protection.

​“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer, but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. Matthew 5:38-39

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:19-21​
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#18
#18
Elijah19 said:
Recently, I attended a Sunday School lesson in my church regarding the above mentioned verse. To summarize, the text is the famous one where Jesus teaches believers to "turn the other cheek." As the Sunday School class was discussing these things, a great number of elder Christians in the group began to state that the interpretation of the verse is that Believers are to be Pacifists. This, however, seemed to contradict John 2:15 where Jesus drives out the money changers at the temple in rage with a whip of chords. Further, a number of other members in the class are both strong Christians AND Veterans of the US Military (men which I respect greatly for their strong faith, by the way). They oddly enough either stayed silent at the idea of a pacifist Christianity, and some even agreed with it, but I'm not entirely sure that the pacifist interpretation is absolutely correct.

Now before anyone says I'm trying to promote violent Christians on here, let me clarify. I believe every word which Jesus says about peace. I know it's 100% true and that Christians are called to peace. Don't doubt that one bit. I myself am a lover not a fighter by nature, but I still believe in fighting for what I love. All I'm asking is for an interpretation of the verse which explains why, on one end, Jesus talked of turning the other cheek and on the other He made a whip of chords and beat a bunch of sinners out of a temple in a rampage. Are there places where Christians can fight (or even use deadly force, as with veterans), or not? If so, where do we draw the line, since either yes or not could be risky answers here? What does "turn the other cheek" actually mean, and to what degree are we to tolerate abuse before we are permitted to make a whip of chords ourselves?
Click to expand...
I am lazy. I do like to believe (whether it's true or not) that I am not the only lazy one, so for all the other lazies, here's the verses copy/pasted (without removing extras added by the ESV):
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,[a] let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
[h=3]Love Your Enemies[/h]43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[b] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

There, that makes it easier.

So when to turn a cheek and when to set your face like flint? Easy one to say, but hard to do.

Decide who is being treated poorly while remember the two commandments. The lazy version -- Love God fully and love others.

Has anyone swatted your face to hurt someone else? I haven't had that experience, although I've seen scenes on TV where interrogators point the gun at a love one to make someone talk.

So I think this is don't ever defend yourself. Matter of fact, give more instead of defending yourself. (Back in those days, common folk only had two tunics, so giving the other one away was very much a huge giving. Today that equals hand over your whole wardrobe.) But, oh yeah! If you need to love God or someone else by openly going to war, go to war.

Jesus was telling us to move away from considering ourselves first. He told us not to consider ourselves at all, "merely" love God fully and others fully.

See? Easier said than done! BUT it is the goal. The real argument against it is, "but I want to love myself first." I truly get that from the bottom of my corrupted heart, but that's not what Jesus wants us to do at all. It is 180 degrees from what he wants us to do!

It's not just hard to do. It's impossible to do, unless we trust him enough to guide us from the inside out. (And even that comes from him.)

Jesus knocked over tables to love his father. It wasn't about him.

He is God so he never needed to stand in front of that court sentencing him to death that whole night. He could have defended himself, but that would not have been loving his Father nor loving others. That would be doing what we would do in his shoes at that moment. He could have kneed the guy about to whip him. He could have headbutted the guy who placed that crown of thorns on his head. He could have dropped the cross and told the Romans to carry it themselves, but all of that would have been loving himself, not loving the Father fully or others fully.

He walked the walk after talking the talk, showing us his way.

For the life of me, I cannot imagine anyone convincing me to carry the cross they're about to hang me on. Then again, I'm not God and God would want me to do just that, if I ever got stuck in that position. That's how impossible this is with God working in us.
 
hornetguy

hornetguy

Senior Member
#19
Jan 18, 2016
6,660
1,407
113
#19
Marcelo said:
1. Jesus teaches believers to "turn the other cheek";
2. Jesus drove out the money changers at the temple in rage with a whip.

The elders mentioned by Elijah19 are right: Believers are to be Pacifists.
Jesus is patient with sinners in general, but He doesn't tolerate people who make money from faith.
Click to expand...
So, if you are out shopping with your wife, and a violent criminal drags her into the alley and rapes her, you would do nothing about it? Would you tell him you are going to pray for him, that he really shouldn't do all those bad things?
 
U

Ultimatum77

Guest
#20
#20
Wow this is a great debate....I personally don't care to turn the other cheek anymore....people just walk over you like a doormat if you do that...yes now all the Christians on the forum will throw verses at me....but hold on....there is another verse which says the Kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force....matthew 11:12 ...I don't entirely know what that verse means but it sounds totally opposite to being a pacificist....

Pacificist christians get run over in society because we don't stand up for what we Believe in and let people say all sorts of junk about us....Now granted we aren't going to go cuss someone out...but there is a way of being affirmative in a good way but still getting your point across...aka not just taking punches but at least blocking them!

If someone where to hurt someone I loved/cared about...they would lose their life or get maimed bad...that is my turning of the cheek or in reality (their cheek, punch on left and right cheek) lol. I don't know if this verse was manipulated or not....but the OT was full of violence so how can God contradict himself???? OT said if your neighbor killed someone you kill that murderer...no turning other cheek but stones to the cheek!
 
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