As to the Temple, it will need to rebuilt. Also one may follow the idea that repairs to understanding must be made. Not a teaching that I would follow so much. Though for the church to be truly ready, there is much work that needs doing. The Word needs to be restored to truth, and that is why there are many in this world working to open the eyes so many more. Of the ones working toward restoration, I thinks you will be hard pressed to find even one that thinks they have all the answers. There is just way to much to be learned, and at times it seems much to unlearn as well. That I fear goes for everyone on this earth, not just some.
Lets talk about Paul
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I do hope you all taking notes, there is going to be a test at the end of the week. LOL Not really.
As many of us know in the time of Paul it was a crime for Jewish people to associate with Gentiles. As a Pharisee, Paul would understood this, and known that to cough doing so could bring about your stoning. Many in Paul's world would have nothing to with a gentile. Even Peter talks of this.
Act 10:28 Then he said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Now I have been asked many times, if Paul knew this, and lived his life under both the oral and Written Torah, why would he show up in Jerusalem with a gentile at his side? The answer is simple. He never did. At lest not that is recorded. However it is in this time that the thinking of Jewish leaders had began to change. As seen in Acts 15, when the debate over circumcision was settled in favor of not forcing this on them. Something that was unheard of in times past.
Also we have the deal with Peter. This was also a game changer for the Gentile. As can be seen if one reads, Act's 10 and 11. In time we find the Word telling us that Jews and Gentiles worshiped together. All of this tells us that in Paul's day, much of the oral Torah was being reformed.
This was not by any change to the Written Torah, rather through a new understanding that gave new light to it's true intent. The work of Paul, and Peter change the world. Not in any big way, just a little thing here and there. This work however, was not of their own doing. Yeshua lead the way, by changing hearts and minds. As any that have read my post can testify to, there is one thing I stand fast on. Man can't change hearts. All we can do is give a fresh look at things, and the rest is up HaShem. We as men are powerless to do that work. Is this to say we should give up? Not at all. You see if Paul, and Peter could face down the held following of the oral Torah, simply by standing on their faith, and not backing away, then we to can do the same.
Sorry about that, didn't mean to start a sermon.
As many of us know in the time of Paul it was a crime for Jewish people to associate with Gentiles. As a Pharisee, Paul would understood this, and known that to cough doing so could bring about your stoning. Many in Paul's world would have nothing to with a gentile. Even Peter talks of this.
Act 10:28 Then he said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Now I have been asked many times, if Paul knew this, and lived his life under both the oral and Written Torah, why would he show up in Jerusalem with a gentile at his side? The answer is simple. He never did. At lest not that is recorded. However it is in this time that the thinking of Jewish leaders had began to change. As seen in Acts 15, when the debate over circumcision was settled in favor of not forcing this on them. Something that was unheard of in times past.
Also we have the deal with Peter. This was also a game changer for the Gentile. As can be seen if one reads, Act's 10 and 11. In time we find the Word telling us that Jews and Gentiles worshiped together. All of this tells us that in Paul's day, much of the oral Torah was being reformed.
This was not by any change to the Written Torah, rather through a new understanding that gave new light to it's true intent. The work of Paul, and Peter change the world. Not in any big way, just a little thing here and there. This work however, was not of their own doing. Yeshua lead the way, by changing hearts and minds. As any that have read my post can testify to, there is one thing I stand fast on. Man can't change hearts. All we can do is give a fresh look at things, and the rest is up HaShem. We as men are powerless to do that work. Is this to say we should give up? Not at all. You see if Paul, and Peter could face down the held following of the oral Torah, simply by standing on their faith, and not backing away, then we to can do the same.
Sorry about that, didn't mean to start a sermon.
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The last we need to cover before we look at Paul's writings is what did Paul call Scripture? If this is misunderstood, then an understanding of Paul becomes clouded in misinformation, and uncertainty. As was pointed out in my first post Paul used what many today call the OT. Quoting, or alluding to it 111 times.
Next we face the question of whether or not Paul any of the writings of what we now call the TN. Were any of them at that time circulating and being called scripture? This as we know would be a matter of timing. As the Gospel of John was not written until after the death of Paul, that one can be ruled out. Though there is on going debate about the Synoptic Gospels, the consensus is that Mark was written first, and Matthew and Luke used it in their compositions. Even if one follows that this is not the case, no one suggests the existence of a recognized Gospel until 65 Ad or after. There may have been some written sayings of Yeshua circulating, The Gospels as we have them today were not extant in Paul's day, so he could not have seen them as scripture.
One thing we must keep i mind is that Paul's letters may well have been written before any of the Gospels or the book of Acts for that matter.
We must also look at what Paul thought of his own writings. After all the question of what Paul called scripture has been placed before us. It is clear that Paul seen his writings as authoritative, at lest in some instances like 1Corinthians. Though it is hardly likely that he seen them on the same level as the Torah. If He had, why would feel a need to quote the Torah?
One thing that brings difficulty is what Peter has to say.
2Pe 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
It may seem odd to find that if Paul's letters were so highly prize, there are not one of his 13 epistles is referenced. A book that holds as it's majority the life and mission of Paul. In fact aside from Peter, the first mention we have of Paul's letters being collected would be from Clement at the end of the 1st century. Yet even then it was not until the 4th century that we find Paul's letter showing any firm consistency.
From this, we can only conclude that Paul had the Tanakh, what we call the OT. Paul seen this as the inspired Word of HaShem. Infallible, truth, from which we can get to know HaShem, holding the righteousness for living, as well as unfailing truth. He seems to have no other writings he seen as scripture. He seem to not have held his own writings as scripture. Yet he said,
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
If as we have seen Paul held only the Tanakh as scripture, can we say that Paul taught the abolition of his own sacred scripture? The vary writings he loved, and held dear. I am going to give some time for answers on this. As I know their is going to fallout, yet from it all, I foresee no rebuttal that can remove the facts.
Next we face the question of whether or not Paul any of the writings of what we now call the TN. Were any of them at that time circulating and being called scripture? This as we know would be a matter of timing. As the Gospel of John was not written until after the death of Paul, that one can be ruled out. Though there is on going debate about the Synoptic Gospels, the consensus is that Mark was written first, and Matthew and Luke used it in their compositions. Even if one follows that this is not the case, no one suggests the existence of a recognized Gospel until 65 Ad or after. There may have been some written sayings of Yeshua circulating, The Gospels as we have them today were not extant in Paul's day, so he could not have seen them as scripture.
One thing we must keep i mind is that Paul's letters may well have been written before any of the Gospels or the book of Acts for that matter.
We must also look at what Paul thought of his own writings. After all the question of what Paul called scripture has been placed before us. It is clear that Paul seen his writings as authoritative, at lest in some instances like 1Corinthians. Though it is hardly likely that he seen them on the same level as the Torah. If He had, why would feel a need to quote the Torah?
One thing that brings difficulty is what Peter has to say.
2Pe 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
It may seem odd to find that if Paul's letters were so highly prize, there are not one of his 13 epistles is referenced. A book that holds as it's majority the life and mission of Paul. In fact aside from Peter, the first mention we have of Paul's letters being collected would be from Clement at the end of the 1st century. Yet even then it was not until the 4th century that we find Paul's letter showing any firm consistency.
From this, we can only conclude that Paul had the Tanakh, what we call the OT. Paul seen this as the inspired Word of HaShem. Infallible, truth, from which we can get to know HaShem, holding the righteousness for living, as well as unfailing truth. He seems to have no other writings he seen as scripture. He seem to not have held his own writings as scripture. Yet he said,
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
If as we have seen Paul held only the Tanakh as scripture, can we say that Paul taught the abolition of his own sacred scripture? The vary writings he loved, and held dear. I am going to give some time for answers on this. As I know their is going to fallout, yet from it all, I foresee no rebuttal that can remove the facts.
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K
..test at the end of the week. haha made me smile.
I agree, the "scripture "referred to was OT. What came to mind was :
Acts 28 23So they set a day to meet with Paul, and many people came to the place he was staying. He expounded to them from morning to evening, testifying about the kingdom of God and persuading them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and the Prophets.
..reading further,
24Some of them were convinced by what he said, but others refused to believe. 25They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit was right when He spoke to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet:
26‘Go to this people and say,...
.. he quotes from Isaiah, and reading back a bit further in Isaiah, this is what Almighty has against them: (summed up)because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
I agree, the "scripture "referred to was OT. What came to mind was :
Acts 28 23So they set a day to meet with Paul, and many people came to the place he was staying. He expounded to them from morning to evening, testifying about the kingdom of God and persuading them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and the Prophets.
..reading further,
24Some of them were convinced by what he said, but others refused to believe. 25They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit was right when He spoke to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet:
26‘Go to this people and say,...
.. he quotes from Isaiah, and reading back a bit further in Isaiah, this is what Almighty has against them: (summed up)because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Most Judaizers don't like Paul. He kind of tears down all of their silliness.
The more hard core the Judaizer the more they try to make it seem as if Pauls writings are inconsequential or really that Paul is a false prophet. But they don't like to use that kind of straight forward language. It would be too easy to tell how much error is contained in what they say.
2 Peter 3:16-18
[FONT="]16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.[/FONT]
The more hard core the Judaizer the more they try to make it seem as if Pauls writings are inconsequential or really that Paul is a false prophet. But they don't like to use that kind of straight forward language. It would be too easy to tell how much error is contained in what they say.
2 Peter 3:16-18
[FONT="]16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.[/FONT]
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Hi Rainrider, I love the topic of the Apostle Paul, his life and ministry. I will be following along as much as I can because I believe this subject will be edifying to the Body of Christ. If I ask you a question concerning something that is being taught about Paul's life and ministry I am not trying to be contentious only looking for clarity.
Question: Would the Apostle Paul have also seen the Torah, (Law of Moses),
as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
I am also a Gentile by the way to whom Paul was sent to preach Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.
"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify my office:" Romans11:13
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians2:4
Great start to a wonderful study of, The Life of the Apostle Paul.
God bless.
Question: Would the Apostle Paul have also seen the Torah, (Law of Moses),
as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
I am also a Gentile by the way to whom Paul was sent to preach Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.
"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify my office:" Romans11:13
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians2:4
Great start to a wonderful study of, The Life of the Apostle Paul.
God bless.
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Good observation my friend. I do think you will be keeping me on my toes. You will also find that Yeshua also quoted that same passage from Is. in Mat. 15:7-9. So if we find the same thing 3 times in the Word, does this tell us it is a suggestion? Not hardly, it does tell us to sit up and pay attention though.
K
Friend I'm ashamed to say, having been raised Baptist, didn't even know what "Torah" meant until about 5 years ago. This is a testimony to Father and not myself, He has shown me more in these past 5 years than all my previous church going years combined. I'm hungry for the Word and there's precious little of it being expounded upon in BDF. So I'm glad you're here.
I have learned to use a bit of caution when asked this. It is not that I am scared of the reaction, it is just that I don't know if you see Rabbinic Law as being Written Torah. So please forgive this being a longer answer than you may have looked for.
The Oral Torah, has never been Biblical Law in anyway. This is what is called Rabbinic Law. Though it did start from their hopes of following the LETTER of the Torah. It grow, (as most things with any government) into something that soon became unrecognizable as Biblical anything. The passage that was pointed out by Karraster points to this fact. Isaiah also confronted the people with this, as did Yeshua.
So on that point, no. Paul warned us about the danger of following this many times.
As to the Written Torah. Yes Paul did tell us what it was, as you pointed out. Yet he never said it was a thing of the past. Some passages may seem that way to the casual reader. Or when removed from there true context. Like say
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Many will say this is telling us that Yeshua removed the Torah,rather than reading this passage with care. You see, to remove the Torah with His death, Yeshua would have been leading us down a road we had no need to travel. When He spoke in Mat5:17-18.
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Most grab the one word FULFILL and never consider the rest. Just as they never think about what Paul is telling us in Eph. SO I am going to brake that one down to make it clear what I am talking of.
(the law of commandments contained in ordinances)
Most never stop to think about the things placed before them. This Law was not Torah, it was in fact the Law that forbid Jews from having dealings with Gentiles. As was pointed out in Peters dream. Acts 10 and 11 if you would like to read that. This is seen once one looks at the last part of the passage.
(so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,)
There would be no need to speak of one new man, or making peace if this was not dealing with that topic.
As I have reached the point of dealing with Pauls writings, I am more than happy to deal with them. I do ask that you show some restraint, and please don't give me any more than 1 or 2 at the most to deal with. The listing of more than this will go unanswered. it is not only unfair, it is rude as well. I do have a life off this PC, and I am going to live it.
I teach classes in my home to pastors, and on line to students that have paid their dues, and so deserve to have my undivided attention.
The Oral Torah, has never been Biblical Law in anyway. This is what is called Rabbinic Law. Though it did start from their hopes of following the LETTER of the Torah. It grow, (as most things with any government) into something that soon became unrecognizable as Biblical anything. The passage that was pointed out by Karraster points to this fact. Isaiah also confronted the people with this, as did Yeshua.
So on that point, no. Paul warned us about the danger of following this many times.
As to the Written Torah. Yes Paul did tell us what it was, as you pointed out. Yet he never said it was a thing of the past. Some passages may seem that way to the casual reader. Or when removed from there true context. Like say
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Many will say this is telling us that Yeshua removed the Torah,rather than reading this passage with care. You see, to remove the Torah with His death, Yeshua would have been leading us down a road we had no need to travel. When He spoke in Mat5:17-18.
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Most grab the one word FULFILL and never consider the rest. Just as they never think about what Paul is telling us in Eph. SO I am going to brake that one down to make it clear what I am talking of.
(the law of commandments contained in ordinances)
Most never stop to think about the things placed before them. This Law was not Torah, it was in fact the Law that forbid Jews from having dealings with Gentiles. As was pointed out in Peters dream. Acts 10 and 11 if you would like to read that. This is seen once one looks at the last part of the passage.
(so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,)
There would be no need to speak of one new man, or making peace if this was not dealing with that topic.
As I have reached the point of dealing with Pauls writings, I am more than happy to deal with them. I do ask that you show some restraint, and please don't give me any more than 1 or 2 at the most to deal with. The listing of more than this will go unanswered. it is not only unfair, it is rude as well. I do have a life off this PC, and I am going to live it.
I teach classes in my home to pastors, and on line to students that have paid their dues, and so deserve to have my undivided attention.
Well thank you. You just showed me that HaShem did place it on my heart to teach the things I do on here. You see, at one point I almost decided that no one wanted to hear any of it. They were all just happy living their lives, and would just as soon burn me at the stake as let me a lone. I prayed about it trusty me. Then as it became clear that I can no long stand behind the pulpit, and the need to teach just keep growing in my heart. It became clear that I could do more good in this manner than any other way. You will see the hate that so called Christians hold in their hearts, for this. It is why I will not call my self by that title. I am a born again believer, nothing more nothing less. HaShem uses me as He will, and I am more than willing to walk any path He gives me. Even if that path leads to my death for His work. Doesn't make me great, or holy, or any of that. I am nothing more than a sinner that wishes to do HaShem's work. What I know of His word, is only that which He loans me. If I don't do what He wants me to with it, He can remove it at any time.
So Yes I thank Him for that loan, and for the courage to face the name callers, and haters, with out so much as a flinch.
I do pray that you gain from this. Even if we don't see eye to eye on every detail, we can learn from one another.
So Yes I thank Him for that loan, and for the courage to face the name callers, and haters, with out so much as a flinch.
I do pray that you gain from this. Even if we don't see eye to eye on every detail, we can learn from one another.
K
My little grandma was Church of God. She loved the LORD with all her heart. I can still see her sitting in her rocker beside the fireplace, Bible in hand. Sometimes she would read something in there that made her lay that Bible in her lap and go to clapping her hands with joy. I thought of that because what you just revealed made me want to clap my hands. I'll keep you in my prayers. May our Almighty bless and keep you and shine His face upon you. (in regards to your post to me)
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Hi Rainrider
"I don't know if you see Rabbinic Law as being Written Torah" - No I do not see them as being the same, and I do understand that Paul warned about the dangers of following Rabbinic Law as did Jesus. Restraint is not a problem and thank you for sharing your time here on this public forum, I will continue to take my seat and follow along; peace and God bless.
"I don't know if you see Rabbinic Law as being Written Torah" - No I do not see them as being the same, and I do understand that Paul warned about the dangers of following Rabbinic Law as did Jesus. Restraint is not a problem and thank you for sharing your time here on this public forum, I will continue to take my seat and follow along; peace and God bless.
I would lie to thank you and Karraster for your understanding and, not grabbing your pitchforks when I get long winded. LOL I know that at times the pastor in me takes over, and that is not why I am here. So please feel free to point out if I am getting that way. I need some help in retaining that. The dean has had to reprimand me many times for that.
May HaShem bless your knowledge, and multiply it with no end.
May HaShem bless your knowledge, and multiply it with no end.
My Grandma was SDA Lived a simple life, no tv or radio. All she had was her Bible, if not for her, I may not be who I am today. She told me to never take the word of man, always look it up for your self. I really don't think what kind of beast she unleashed on the world though. In regards to my inability to let it slid when I hear flat out lies come from a pulpit.
I found the below post in the thread called "About Judaizing" and I have commented on it below the post.
Originally Posted by Grandpa
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
No longer working at the law doesn't mean we don't keep the law. It just means we don't keep it by our own understanding and our own strength.
So when someone says you have to rest on saturdays like the law says, they are going back to an OT, works based, mis-understanding of the Spiritual Law.
When someone says we Rest in Christ, the way in which they would call heresy, they are keeping the whole law by being the workmanship of God, through His Holy Spirit and not through a carnal understanding of a carnal law.
"Unquote"
Well said Grandpa! ( It says I must spread it around before I can give you a rep )
That is the whole essence of law and grace. The law of Christ Himself living in and through us does keep the whole intent of the law - just not in "the way" of the Old Covenant.
Jesus said that all the law and the prophets speak of Christ Himself - which is why Paul was able to say - " believing all things that are written in the law and the prophets."
Law-keepers mis-apply this to mean that Paul kept the law of Moses in it's original state - which is in a carnal ( of the flesh way ) keeping of it.
This of course is totally false because Paul said to the Galatians that if they get circumcised as the law states they should - then Christ will become of no effect to them and they have fallen from grace. Gal. 5:2-4
( As a good Jew - I'm sure Paul kept some of his old ways of living too but he certainly didn't put gentile Christians under his Jewish cultural traditions and demand that they follow it or they are sinning and dis-obeying God as some Sabbath keepers try to put on other Christians )
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
No longer working at the law doesn't mean we don't keep the law. It just means we don't keep it by our own understanding and our own strength.
So when someone says you have to rest on saturdays like the law says, they are going back to an OT, works based, mis-understanding of the Spiritual Law.
When someone says we Rest in Christ, the way in which they would call heresy, they are keeping the whole law by being the workmanship of God, through His Holy Spirit and not through a carnal understanding of a carnal law.
"Unquote"
Well said Grandpa! ( It says I must spread it around before I can give you a rep )
That is the whole essence of law and grace. The law of Christ Himself living in and through us does keep the whole intent of the law - just not in "the way" of the Old Covenant.
Jesus said that all the law and the prophets speak of Christ Himself - which is why Paul was able to say - " believing all things that are written in the law and the prophets."
Law-keepers mis-apply this to mean that Paul kept the law of Moses in it's original state - which is in a carnal ( of the flesh way ) keeping of it.
This of course is totally false because Paul said to the Galatians that if they get circumcised as the law states they should - then Christ will become of no effect to them and they have fallen from grace. Gal. 5:2-4
( As a good Jew - I'm sure Paul kept some of his old ways of living too but he certainly didn't put gentile Christians under his Jewish cultural traditions and demand that they follow it or they are sinning and dis-obeying God as some Sabbath keepers try to put on other Christians )