The sermon on the mount - Old or New covenant?

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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#1
Are the teachings on the mount part of the Old Covenant or of the New Covenant? Or is it mixed?

If they are part of the Old Covenant, how could Jesus teach what is the opposite to what was written in it? (See A.)

If they are part of the New Covenant, why do we need to forgive others to be forgiven by God? (See B.)

If it is mixed, how to know what is belonging to which covenant?

-----

A. "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies..."
Mt 5:43

B. "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Mt 6:15
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#2
Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations, The covenant He made with Aḇraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.[/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Galatians 3:27-29, “For as many of you as were immersed into Messiah have put on Messiah. There is not Yehuḏi nor Greek, there is not slave nor free, there is not male and female, for you are all one in Messiah [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And if you are of Messiah, then you are seed of Aḇraham, and heirs according to promise.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 89:26-37, “He will call out to Me; ‘You are My Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of My salvation!’ And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish His Seed forever, and His throne will be as the days of heaven. Should His children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from Him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness, I cannot lie, and I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky.”[/FONT]

 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#3
Are the teachings on the mount part of the Old Covenant or of the New Covenant? Or is it mixed?
All of Christ's teachings are universal and also for Christians. The Sermon on the Mount raises the standard of behavior for all, and is applicable to everyone.

If they are part of the Old Covenant, how could Jesus teach what is the opposite to what was written in it? (See A.)
Jesus was NOT teaching the opposite of what was in the Old Covenant, but clarifying the application of certain laws and how they should be understood.

If they are part of the New Covenant, why do we need to forgive others to be forgiven by God? (See B.)
Because harboring grudges and maintaining an unforgiving spirit are clearly violations of the Law of Christ (the Law of Love). Since the Lord taught that we are to love our enemies, we must forgive in order to be forgiven.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#4
Jesus was NOT teaching the opposite of what was in the Old Covenant, but clarifying the application of certain laws and how they should be understood.
"Do I not hate those who hate you, LORD, and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?"
Psalm 139:21

"There is...a time to love and a time to hate."
Eccl 3:8

Because harboring grudges and maintaining an unforgiving spirit are clearly violations of the Law of Christ (the Law of Love). Since the Lord taught that we are to love our enemies, we must forgive in order to be forgiven.
So, its faith in Christ + our quality and perfection in forgiving others?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
#5
Are the teachings on the mount part of the Old Covenant or of the New Covenant? Or is it mixed?

If they are part of the Old Covenant, how could Jesus teach what is the opposite to what was written in it? (See A.)

If they are part of the New Covenant, why do we need to forgive others to be forgiven by God? (See B.)

If it is mixed, how to know what is belonging to which covenant?

-----

A. "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies..."
Mt 5:43

B. "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Mt 6:15
There's not one Christian present at the sermon on the mount. The teaching is for Jews and how to live and behave in the millennial kingdom. The kingdom was at hand at that time but has been postponed due to the rejection of the King. There is application for the church, but doctinally, it's to the nation of Israel.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#6
All of Christ's teachings are universal and also for Christians. The Sermon on the Mount raises the standard of behavior for all, and is applicable to everyone.
There's not one Christian present at the sermon on the mount. The teaching is for Jews
And now, how should I choose :)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#7
So, its faith in Christ + our quality and perfection in forgiving others?
No. It is REPENTANCE toward God, and FAITH toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). Repentance does not simply mean "a change of mind" (the lexical meaning) but it means a TOTAL REVERSAL of one's lifestyle and one's thought life. So a murderer would turn away completely from murdering others, and an unforgiving person would stop holding grudges and maintaining an unforgiving spirit.

Which means that the converted sinner would go to his enemies, or those who have wronged him, and tell them "I forgive you completely". And this is the attitude which the saint would maintain. Stephen prayed for those who were stoning him and asked the Lord to not hold them guilty for their sin against him.

And he [Stephen] kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Acts 7:60).
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
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#8
There's not one Christian present at the sermon on the mount. The teaching is for Jews and how to live and behave in the millennial kingdom. The kingdom was at hand at that time but has been postponed due to the rejection of the King. There is application for the church, but doctinally, it's to the nation of Israel.
That is not true,for it is pertaining to how to conduct oneself concerning the New Testament,that is pleasing to God,and to be able to enter the kingdom of God,for Jesus came to preach the Gospel.

And kingdom of God,and kingdom of heaven,are interchangeable,and Matthew is the only Gospel that uses kingdom of heaven,where everybody else in the New Testament used kingdom of God,including Matthew.

Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew used kingdom of heaven,and kingdom of God,to describe the same place.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Jesus is speaking of the things pertaining to the New Testament,and how to please God,to be able to attain access to the heavenly realm,although the kingdom will be restored to the Jews in the future.


Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Jesus will rule with an rod of iron in the millennial reign of Christ,and will be a time of peace,and people will not war with people,and animals and people will not be against each other,and animals and animals will not be against each other,and be plant eaters,and will be so tame that a child can lead a crocodile in one hand,and a lion in the other hand,and that animal will have no desire to hurt the child.

But Jesus speaks of persecution,but there is no persecution at that time when the kingdom is restored to the Jews,but there is persecution concerning the New Testament,and the Church.

Also since the kingdom is restored to Israel,they will be peacemakers,they will not mourn,they will be filled with righteousness,they will be merciful,so the things Jesus told them to strive for,they will not have to strive for it when the kingdom is restored to the Jews.

But in the New Testament the saints have to strive for those things.

But in the millennial reign of Christ it is a time of peace,no persecution,and the Jews do not have to strive to act a certain way,for they will act that way.

In the millennial reign of Christ,Jesus rules out of Jerusalem,and with a rod of iron,so the Jews are not going to be persecuted for righteousness' sake,but Jesus speaks of persecution that would apply to the New Testament,the Church.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#9
Are the teachings on the mount part of the Old Covenant or of the New Covenant? Or is it mixed?

If they are part of the Old Covenant, how could Jesus teach what is the opposite to what was written in it? (See A.)

If they are part of the New Covenant, why do we need to forgive others to be forgiven by God? (See B.)

If it is mixed, how to know what is belonging to which covenant?

-----

A. "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies..."
Mt 5:43

B. "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Mt 6:15
I believe that it is neither.

Jesus is selecting various pharisaic teachings and explaining how God thinks about them.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#10
I believe that it is neither.

Jesus is selecting various pharisaic teachings and explaining how God thinks about them.
Why do you think its about pharisaic teachings? Because He used a phrase "you heard that it was said" instead of "it is written"?

I thought about this, but it seems to me that He is quoting Scriptures...
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,267
432
83
#11
Covenant

Strong's Concordance 1242

diathéké: testament, will, covenant
Original Word: διαθήκη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: diathéké
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ath-ay'-kay)

Short Definition: a covenant, will, testament

Definition: (a) a covenant between two parties,

(b) (the ordinary, everyday sense [found a countless number of times in papyri]) a will, testament.

My answe to the question.

Where the Old Covenant/Testament ends & Where the New Testament/Covenant begins

Strongs & Vines each define: Covenant & Testament

The New Testament/Covenant written in the innocent sinless Blood of God's Son, Jesus the Christ. Doesn't begin until after Christ's death (sin paid for) & Resurrection (God's stamped receipt Sin & Death conquered)

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
(NOTE: The DEATH of the testator is necessary)

Answer: The Resurrection.

All scripture was written for us.

Not all scripture is written to us.

Scripture Study Tips

When dissecting any verse of scripture. Ask yourself, of whom, to whom, with what words, what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what is written before and what follows any single verse context.
"""""Myles Coverdale, Bible theologian/translator."""""
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,267
432
83
#12
Kingdom of God vs Kingdom of Heaven

Throughout scripture two kingdoms: physical & spiritual are revealed.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Jesus Christ) was made a quickening spirit
Adam physical, Christ Spiritual (1 Cor 15:45)
Cain physical, Abel spiritual
Ishmael physical, Isaac spiritual (See Gal 4:22-31)
Esau physical, Jacob spiritual
Israel physical, Body of Christ/Church spiritual

Jesus preached the Gospel of the kingdom, yet spoke about both. I found the reference to "Kingdom of Heaven" 31 times in Matt. I found reference to "Kingdom of God" 45 time in the 4 gospels.

If Jewish leadership had excepted their Messiah. They could have received both. And one day soon, they will again have the opportunity.

The Kingdom of God is SPIRITUAL! Not physical:
Lk 17:21 (B) Jesus said; Behold, "the kingdom of God is within you"
(NOTE: This is a spirit promise that began in Acts 2:4)

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you
(NOTE: Righteous is abtained thru faith in Christ's sin atoning sacrifice & sealed by the indewlling Holy Spirit)

Mk 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
(NOTE: Turn to God & place your faith in His Christ)

Mk 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
(NOTE: The sower is Christ (Lk 8:5), the seed is Gods Word (Lk 8:11) and the soil is our hearts Lk 8:15)

Lk 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Lk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
(NOTE: Born again = New spiritual birth)

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(NOTE: Born of water/flesh first then of spirit thru Faith. The need to be born of flesh 1st rules out salvation for fallen angels)

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
(The Holy Spirit is what? SPIRITUAL!)

1Cor 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
(NOTE: The Kingdom of God is NOT physical! It is in resurrection POWER)

Lk 17:21 (B) Jesus said; Behold, "the kingdom of God is within you"
(NOTE: The Kingdom of God": is SPIRITUAL: The Church = Christ in you: "The Body of Christ"!

The point in posting the following 4 verses is: In Revelation at the end of the physical Kingdom of Heaven there is a rebellion (Rev 20:8-9) No people like these ever make it into the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God.

1 Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of Heaven is PHYSICAL! It is the fulfillment of Gods pomise to Abraham (Gen 12:2-3, 13:14, 15:17-18)

The physical land covenant God makes with Abraham & Israel is EVERLASTING:

God gives the exact boundaries of the promised land in Num 34:1-15 (also: Deut 1:8, Ex 2:24, Ex 6:4, 8 & Ps 105:8-11)

The Gospel of the Kingdom message begins with John the Baptist Matt 3:2-6 & Mk 1:4-5

After John's arrest, Jesus himself takes up the kingdon message. Matt 4:12-17

Matt 4:23 Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, "preaching the gospel of the kingdom"

The promised Kingdom reign of Christ could have begun, had the Jewish leadership accepted God's chosen Messiah. They rejected Messiah & had him killed. Gods promise of a physical King & phyical Kingdom will happen at Christs soon return.

Zech 9:14 & 15, 12:10–14, 13:1, Jer 30:18, 32:44, 33:11, 26, Joel 3:1, Amos 9:11–15, Rev 20:6.

The promised physical kingdom reign of Gods chosen Messiah was only postponed. Soon The King will return, set-up and physically rule from Jerusalem, An OT promise to Israel's Fathers/Abraham.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
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#13
All of Christ's teachings are universal and also for Christians.
how do i keep this one?

The teachers of the Law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.

(Matthew 23:2-3)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
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#14
Why do you think its about pharisaic teachings? Because He used a phrase "you heard that it was said" instead of "it is written"?

I thought about this, but it seems to me that He is quoting Scriptures...
if you look for "an eye for an eye" in the Law for example ((Exodus 21:24)), you will find that it is given specifically for the case where a pregnant women is accidentally injured by other people fighting. rabbis may have understood this to be a general principle to be applied in other cases - if i understand it correctly, the argument that Jesus is teaching against Pharisaical tradition is that they are wrongly applying this Law outside of the situation it should be applied.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
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#15
how do i keep this one?

The teachers of the Law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.

(Matthew 23:2-3)
Here's how:

15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

16
According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.


17
And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.


18
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


19
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19).
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
#16
Here's how:

15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

16
According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.


17
And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.


18
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


19
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19).

this is one of the most famous Messianic prophecies. so you are saying i should do what Christ says, right?

but Christ in what i quoted is saying do what the Pharisees say to do -- because they sit in Moses' seat.
i am not baptized into Moses - am i?
so today, do i obey the rabbis in Judaism who sit in the seat of the authority of Moses? He is literally saying obey what the teachers of the Law say, and it seems abundantly clear that there's no legitimate interpretation of what Law He is referring to other than the Mosaic covenant.

or do we 'filter' this commandment of His through the cross? then if we do that, who is He telling me to carefully obey?

according to this, for example, must i keep a kosher diet - as the rabbis who sit in Moses' seat today say - or is all food clean to me if i take it with thanksgiving?
is this for Christians, or for Jews? if you are saying that the one who sits in Moses' seat is now Christ, not the ones who hold authority according to the priesthood of Levi, then it seems like what He said literally was for the Hebrew, but not literally for me, and now spiritually for me... ?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#17
...but Christ in what i quoted is saying do what the Pharisees say to do -- because they sit in Moses' seat.
Correct. So until the crucifixion of Christ -- had you lived at that time -- you would have been under the Old Covenant and this would have applied to you. But since you are under the New Covenant, Deut 18:15-19 is what you must focus on. Christ already nullified the dietary restrictions while on earth by teaching that what comes out of a man's heart defiles him.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#18
Why do you think its about pharisaic teachings? Because He used a phrase "you heard that it was said" instead of "it is written"?

I thought about this, but it seems to me that He is quoting Scriptures...
Except for Mat 5:43 All of the 'Ye have heard that it hath been said,' statements refer to scripture; but are perversions of what the cited Scripture intended. Mat 5:43 has NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS and in fact Exo 23:4-5 teach the exact opposite.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#19
Except for Mat 5:43 All of the 'Ye have heard that it hath been said,' statements refer to scripture; but are perversions of what the cited Scripture intended. Mat 5:43 has NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS and in fact Exo 23:4-5 teach the exact opposite.
Where do you see the perversion? Jesus quotes Scriptures and then immediatelly says "but I say to you...". I see no pharisaic interpretation mentioned.

Mat 5:43 is truly a special case. I think that maybe our Exodus can differ from the version Jesus quoted. Or it can be some pharisaic addition. I do not know how to decide this.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,585
3,616
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#20
Everything Jesus said in his sermon on the mount is True... So it is irrelevant if it is OT or NT ..