Baptism and holy spirit

In context we see that the perfection that comes is 'love'. When that perfection comes in the believer they move away from their preoccupation with learning and instead now seek to live out what they have been taught and trained by the Spirit to do.

Loving others in a changed character is the destination for all believers. That's the place we are growing up into. But many Christians get stuck on the 'tools' God gave us to build each other up into the perfection of love without ever really getting to that perfection and they, like the Corinthians, think that's Christian maturity. Paul is explaining to the Corinthians that they are focusing on the spiritual gifts that God gives his body to grow it up into the perfection of love instead of focusing on the perfection of love itself.

Eventually, we grow up and we stop focusing on the things God gave us to get us where we are going and we set our sights on being that which our learning has grown us up to be. That gift, or bit of knowledge that seems like the end-all of the Christian faith today will one day be like an old College text book you keep on a shelf in the den and your focus will be on doing what that gift or bit of knowledge trained you to be.

You prove my point. Paul is writing to believers that are in error in the church. They are causing harm to the testimony of Christ because of their behavior.

Paul references Isaiah 28 on the matter of tongues to underscore the purpose of tongues. They are a sign to Israel that she has rejected her Messiah and is going to suffer judgment because of her behavior.

I imagine that Jews today consider the activities of the NT church to be foolishness when they see tongues or what most consider to be tongues in the NT church.

Still the romantic notion that NT Gentiles should speak in tongues or pray in tongues is far from biblical.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes, and then Paul tells them how to properly operate the manifestations.

The purpose of tongues is to edify the individual (1 Cor 14:4), and when done in public and interpreted, it edifies the church (1 Cor 14:5).

YOU consider tongues as foolishness, right, Roger?

Why can't you see that your statements directly contradict the scriptures?

The Corinthian church was a gentile church.

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

True that Paul was writing to correct error and confusion in the church at Corinth.

Paul was not advocating the use of tongues because they were causing the confusion. The guidelines set forth by Paul are ignored by virtually all who claim to have the gift of tongues. Praying in tongues without knowledge goes against the most basic teachings that every Jew would have received as a child. Prayer without knowledge cannot produce understanding which will cannot lead to wisdom. No self respecting Jew would engage in a practice that would not result in any discernable growth in the knowledge of the Lord.

There is no evidence that the tongues at Corinth were anything like the tongues in Acts. There is also no consensus that the tongues in the modern church are homogeneous from one person to the next.

I think tongues as seen in the modern church are an impediment to proper Christian growth and testimony.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I do not understand how you can read these words and then say what you say.

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Unfortunately, in many Pentecostal churches, that is true. People still all speak in tongues at once, which Paul specifically teaches against.

And again, tongues is not a gift, it is one of the nine manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

What is praying in tongues without knowledge?

What is prayer without knowledge?

Are you referring to the fact that when a person speaks in tongues he does not know what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14)?

I am a Christian, not a "self respecting Jew". Jews do not accept Jesus as the Christ.

Tongues do not result in "growth in the knowledge of the Lord". When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying, his understanding is unfruitful. The Bible does explicitly state that when a person speaks in tongues, he is edified (1 Cor 4:4), and when he speaks in tongues and interprets, the church is edified. Also, speaking in tongues is "giving thanks well" (1 Cor 14:17).

Of course there is. Paul told them that when they spoke in tongues they were edifying themselves and giving thanks well.

What do you mean by that? Do you think everyone's tongue should be the same?

You have made your opinion of tongues very clear many times.

It's just that many of the things you state directly contradict what the Bible says.

It is not only a manifestation of the Spirit in a person but it also called a gift:

"4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills."-1 Corinthians 12:4-11

The bible is very clear about tongues. Those who wish to engage in romantic fantasy endeavor to make modern tongues to be something that they never presented as in the bible.

When a person is edified by speaking in tongues he does not comprehend who is doing the edifying? God or man? You propose things which are not sensible.

I offer only a bible based observation. Paul was not adverse to biblical tongues only the confused tongues of the Corinthian church. Perhaps you will tell me how the tongues in Acts are like the tongues in Corinthians.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

1 Corinthians 12
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

As I indicated, they are NOT all the same. Kindly study the matter. Christians can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit but fail to be filled with the Spirit (if they allow the flesh to take control). Also, large numbers of Spirit-filled Christians DO NOT speak in tongues, but are walking in the Spirit.

The "Pentecostal concept" - What exactly is that?

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Already explained. Pentecostal "Spirit filled" = tongues

Speaking by inspiration - Paul said - I would that you all spake in tongues

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You failed to complete the sentence: "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied..."

In modern parlance what he was saying is "It would be wonderful if you all spoke in tongues (which is not likely), but RATHER you should all be prophesying, because that is more profitable for the church".

Why was it not likely? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (1 Cor 12:30). What did that mean? All DO NOT speak with tongues. And here's the reason why -- Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. (1 Cor 12:4)

1 Cor. 13:8 - Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. . . . 10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

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Seeing Christ face to face is a separate matter and follows this portion. For the present, tongues have ceased because that which is COMPLETE -- the Bible -- is in our hands. That word "perfect" means complete. And modern tongues are not Bible tongues, which proves the point.

What do you mean by a Christian being fully "CONTROLLED" by the Holy Spirit?

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Paul contrasts being under the influence of alcohol with being under the influence of the Holy Spirit in this passage. So "fully controlled" means that the Christian is walking in the Spirit, and producing the fruit of the Spirit, therefore is empowered to speak the Word of God boldly.

Speaking the word with all boldness - the disciples spoke with all boldness after receiving power from on high (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8), i.e. the gift of holy spirit. (Acts 2:38)

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So all these Christians who were gathered together to pray in the unity of the Spirit had already received the gift of the Holy Spirit. But because they were all of one heart and one mind, they were filled with the Holy Spirit, and the result was that they spoke the Word of God boldly, just like the apostles did on the Day of Pentecost.

There are varieties of gifts. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man. The manifestations are listed in vv 8-10.

Indeed it is.

Many of us speak in tongues as instructed in the Bible. Speaking in tongues is not a "romantic fantasy endeavor". You belittle it because you do not understand it.

I believe what the Bible states on the matter. When a person speaks in tongues, he edifies himself, builds himself up (1 Cor 14:4; Jude 20), and he gives thanks well (1 Cor 14:17).

No, you do not. You make many statements that directly contradict the Bible. Just a couple posts up you stated "Paul was not advocating the use of tongues", and the Bible clearly states he would like all Christians to speak in tongues. Why can't you see that?

The Corinthians were speaking in tongues, but they were doing it out of order. They were all speaking at once and nobody was interpreting. Paul instructed them on the proper use.

In every way. Part of the miracle of Pentecost was that the tongues the apostles were speaking were understood by other people present. That rarely happens (but it still occasionally does..). That's why we have Paul's instruction in 1 Cor 14 that when a person speaks in tongues in public, he must interpret, so the church can be edified.

You are right, but the point we are trying to make is that every born-again Christian CAN speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:7), and that God WANTS them to (1 Cor 14:5).

So Nehemiah... Do you prophesy?


You failed to complete the sentence:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


That is true. But it's not because God does not want them to.

That is not the reason why most Christians do not speak in tongues. While there ARE diversities of gifts, the manifestation of the spirit is given to EVERY man (1 Cor 12:7).


That is a common belief that stops people from doing what God wants them to do.


Modern tongues are Bible tongues. Tongues have not changed.

Paul contrasts being under the influence of alcohol with being under the influence of the Holy Spirit in this passage. So "fully controlled" means that the Christian is walking in the Spirit, and producing the fruit of the Spirit, therefore is empowered to speak the Word of God boldly.

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The Holy Spirit will never "control" you.

We should all do that.

Tongues are a sign of Gods judgment. Start with Nimrod at the tower of Babel go onto Moses in Deut 28:49 and then to Isaiah 28. Judgment and captivity are what the Jew associates with tongues.

Paul in 1 Cor 14 says that he won't stop them from speaking in tongues but he prefers that they prophecy so that they are edified. The important thing is the Spiritual growth of the body not by tongues but by expository teaching of doctrine. 1 Cor 14 Paul says that if one speaks and no one understands but him then he is speaking to the air. The others will think him a barbarian and he will think them to be a barbarian.

Acts gives no account of any interpretation of the tongues spoken only that they were an evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism of souls that received salvation by grace through faith in Christ. 1 Cor is all about interpretation. Acts 2 is unique in that all who heard understood in their native languages. The miracle of tongues was in the ears of the hearers not in the mouth of the speaker. This was not the same as in 1 Cor. Nor is it evident in the other accounts in Acts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Speaking in tongues is one of the nine manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Paul said no such thing. Please reread the verse.

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Also see the last half of the verse: "except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying".

Correct doctrine is very important. That does not negate that Christians can speak in tongues, and that God wants them to.

That is precisely why when tongues are spoken publicly, they must be interpreted.

That's correct. There was no interpretation on the day of Pentecost. As stated above, part of the miracle of Pentecost was that the languages spoken by the apostles were understood by other people present. That almost never happens, which is why Paul instructs that when tongues are spoken in public, they must be interpreted.

Yes. Tongues is proof that a person is born again. Note that I am NOT saying that if a Christian does not speak in tongues he is not saved.

And more.

Exactly.

The languages given to the apostles to speak were the languages of the other people present.

It is precisely the same.

The other accounts have no record of people understanding what the people speaking in tongues were saying. Paul clearly states that when a person speaks in tongues he does not understand what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14). Since generally when people meet together they all speak the same language, nobody will understand what is being said. That's why when a person speaks in tongues out loud, he is to interpret, so the church can be edified.

Here's why: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

What is Paul saying?

5 intelligible words > 10,000 words in tongues!

The entire 14th chapter of 1 Corinthians is to teach Christians that when they focus on tongues the are being childish: Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. (1 Cor 14:20).

Only if what is spoken in tongues is not interpreted.

In the Corinthian church everyone was speaking in tongues at once, with nobody interpreting. It was useless, because nobody could understand. Tongues is not for teaching. If a person is going to teach, he obviously needs to speak in the language of the people present. That's why 5 intelligible words > 10,000 words in tongues.

But you also need to take into account vv27-28.

27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

When people speak in tongues out loud in the church, they must interpret, so the church can be edified. It must be "by course", or in order, one at a time. And the whole church does not need to do it ("by two, or at most by three"). Many modern Pentecostal churches need to heed what Paul said. Pentecostal churches where everyone speaks in tongues at once are doing what the Corinthian church was doing, and they are wrong.

That's simply not true, Nehemiah. Paul was teaching them the proper usage of tongues, interpretation, and prophesy.

Amen!

In context . . . I see that if the spiritual matters spoken of in 1 Cor. 12 are not operated in love; they are nothing. Perfection will not come in a believer until Christ returns and we will shall see him as he is for we shall be like him.
The Corinthians were letting pride interfere with their relationship with God. Because one had the gift of teaching . . . he was better than the one who didn't, etc. Now I beseech you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. . . . there are contentions among you . . . that contention was spread to other things besides baptism (1:12-) each one thinking they were better than another.
These "things" God gave us to grow in Christ, the gift ministries, all nine manifestations, being a service towards others, are all to be operated with one mind set - LOVE. These "things" are what God gave us to grow spiritually - to grow to the end that we are conformed unto the image of Christ . . . so we are to utilize what God has given us NOT until we reach perfection but until that which is perfect is come whom we will see face to face and we shall be like him - THEN we can put away these "childish things" for we will no longer need them.

So this comment is erroneous. Anybody that says that whoever does not speak in tongues has not been baptized by the Spirit into Christ is completely wrong. 1 Corinthians is very clear about that.

No such thing as a sign gift we walk by faith not be sight (signs)

It shows that the unbeliever does not believe prophecy(Gods word) . So God mocking them spoke in any language he desired. I don't think the principle changes between verse 23,24 and v27,28)

He is simply stating that when the gospel goes out the other person must be able to understand interpret what they are saying to each other. Or they will both be as Barbarians to each other. The gift is mutual affecting two, never one as in self edification.. The gospel when delivered to a person that speaks another language would be like for instance with Philip and the Ethiopian, or Peter and the Italian who was sent to Peter.

Today they have machines that translate one language from the other.

When and if God did translate one language from another he does not each time say they both needed to hear the interpretation from God in their own language. Paul visited many places. This is before God no longer brought any new revelation after any manner. them hearing what the spirit says to each other . No private interpretation of men

Today we have the perfect word with no laws missing by which we could know our God more adequately. Many today claim they have received new revelations that add to the word of God. Paul must have had many experiences of the new workings of the Holy Spirit

The revealing of God in different languages could have been used many times. But once is enough to know men were not barbarians to one another and the gospel went understood by the Spirit of Christ that lived in them.

Simon needed to hear the gospel in his language from Phipps just as did Peter when God sent the apostle Cornelius who most likely spoke Italian

Acts 8:11-13 King James Version (KJV) And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Acts 11:1-16 King James Version (KJV) And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying, I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me: Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth. But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me. And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house: And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.16

LOL To the Jew there is no situation where the evidence of tongues would not have caused them to think about judgment from Jehovah God. The first appearance of tongues is one of God judging Nimrod and the others present at Babel.

Edification is accomplished through teaching Gods word with understanding.

For the cause of Christ
Roger