Oh goody another OSAS thread!

So many lost folk changing the meaning of words and taking verses out of context in some weak attempt to discredit Jesus as our savior....

John 11:26

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

they see this and pretend to agree

add many conditions to salvation on top of this with their word games and out of context verses

then when it comes to the loss of salvation

they add more verses out of context and word games to act like God can't see the difference between genuine and real faith until someone SHOWS Him with works

they ignore His promises and call Him a weak liar by saying He loses His own


you guys need to repent and believe the gospel

You just think I'm preaching that works justify and earn salvation because you do not know what Peter and Paul and James mean when they talk about works that save. The best answer you can come up with is to ignore those passages because they don't fit into your doctrinal box. Instead, what you should do is seek to understand what they mean when they talk about works saving a person and include those passages in your doctrinal box.

You need to go back and re-read posts #663 and #700. You continue to confuse the reality (Spirit baptism) with the picture of the reality (water baptism).

Water baptism pictures a person being buried with Christ (submersion under water) and being raised to new life with Christ (emergence from water). This symbolizes the person's union with, and incorporation into Christ by the action of the Holy Spirit which previously took when we believed/placed faith in Him for salvation (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9).

Water baptism is an outward, physical symbol of the inward, spiritual conversion of Christians. The allusion is to the SYMBOLISM of baptism which was the OUTWARD SIGN of the separation. Water baptism as a picture of death, burial and resurrection symbolizes our likeness to Christ in his death and resurrection. One is the picture or likeness of the other. Water baptism is not the reality but only a picture of the reality.

Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by immersing the new believer in and out of the water.

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that salvation/justification is by FAITH, not baptism.

In regards to Acts 22:16, the Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, properly translated means "having called" on the name of the Lord. Paul’s calling on Christ's name for salvation preceded his water baptism. It is absurd to think that Paul had not yet called upon the name of the Lord and that water baptism is all the same as calling on the name of the Lord. This "washing away of sin" in water baptism was only "formal" or symbolic.

*As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. Water baptism does not wash the soul. This occurred earlier when Paul came to faith in Christ.

Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160].

Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT). The thief on the cross was saved when he called on the name of the Lord in faith - "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." (Luke 23:43) *The thief was not even water baptized.* No Scripture is to be interpretated in isololation from the totality of Scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.

In Acts 10:43, receiving remission of sins is connected with "believes in Him" and not with baptism (Acts 10:43-47). In Acts 9, the Savior told Ananias that Paul "is a chosen vessel unto Me" (v. 15), although the apostle had not yet been baptized. Before Paul was baptized, Christ had already commissioned him to "bear [His] name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15); such a commission is not God’s portion for one still lost and under divine wrath.

Before Paul’s baptism, Christ had set him aside as one who would "suffer for His name’s sake" (9:16). Can one who is a child of the devil, as all the lost are (Ephesians 2:1-3, John 8:44), really suffer for Christ’s sake? NO. God accepted Paul’s prayers before his baptism (Acts 9:11). People in the church of Christ teach that God does not hear an unsaved man's prayer, quoting in this regard John 9:31 - "We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will." Well, Paul was a worshipper of God, calling Christ "Lord" and then setting out to do His will. All of these things characterized Paul before he was baptized. So, Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17).

*It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

(using birth as an earthly example to help the lost Nicodemus who believed in works and didnt understand spiritual things to explain something spiritual to him)

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

(again Nicodemus is unable to understand this spiritual lesson even with an earthly example of birth so he uses his earthly reasoning to question Jesus about being born of flesh two times)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(still speaking of brith and trying to relate the two.... born of water = anatomical fluid =born of flesh and born of the Spirit = when God makes His children new)

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(again further explaining the two births.... flesh = natural birth Spirit = born of God)


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again......



it's not born again again

born, born of a cerimony being dipped in water, born of spirit


it's born < natural birth > again < born of God

No i think you preach works because you do,

And the fact you deny to confess your faith is proof one should not oay attention to you, and that your most likely just here to play games

I know what the apostles meant, and they do not contradict each other, unless we interpret them the way you do.

The promise is for those who are presently believing, not for those who have stopped believing.

You must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.




Nobody has ever been lost because Jesus failed in his ministerial duty. But some have walked away from the ministry of Jesus that can never fail.

He will never be found to be a liar about never failing in his ministry that people are depending on to be saved. And he is not lying when he says only those who continue to believe and abide in Him have the promise of salvation.

Probably wouldn't make a bit of difference to entrenched dogmatic belief, but those who believe in OSAS should read what some of the church fathers wrote about the matter. For example:

Irenaeus

Origen

If you did you would agree with them that works save. But since you can only understand works saving a person as those works justifying them and earning their salvation you won't be able to say with your mouth what the Apostles said that works save.

Its been quite interesting the past few days seeing legalistic believers argue against each other to enforce their form of legalism.

First we had Ralph and HRFTD, now we have OneFaith and Justpassingthrough!

Note the connection between once saved always saved and Gnosticism. Yet it is vehemently denied that once saved always saved (the Hypergrace version) has anything to do with making grace a license to sin in unbelief.

Or drifted away through neglect.

Now which is it, do works save, or are we saved by fath?

You just said you do not teach works save, now here you go again and contradict yourself

Ps, we are saved BECAUSEwe are justified, the two terms are united and go hand in hand, you can not have one wihout the other,

Justification means we are saved from wrath and will be ressurected into heaven, and not delivered to hell.

Your the one with issues reguarding terms

I've been very sick... but I doubt it's worth going back to check

even if I (or any brother or sister who God has revealed the truth to) were to go back and correct every mistake they make

their hate for reproof and self perceived wisdom would snuff out any hope for growth without divine intervention

See? This shows you are simply incapable of understanding works to be saved in any other way than works justifying you and earning salvation for you. You not correctly that I'm preaching works, but you did not even bother to note that I'm preaching works the way the Apostles are preaching works.


You're getting desperate.


Then say it with your keyboard........works save. That's what they said, now you say it.[/QUOTE]

What connction?

Oh thats right, the connection your groupies have made because you can not listen to people to find out what they really believe, and because of this, slander them and make them gnostic or licentious. Which is prety out there,

But we have seen it all, the legalist will call grace people licentious, saying they excuse sin, because we worry about getting a person saved before we worry about tryng to ivercome a sin issue they are powerless to fight apart from God, and the licentious call us legalists, because we confront them on their sin issues, and ask them why they think it is ok for gods people to act like the world.

Well slandering them will.p not help you or anyone else on judgment day

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’.. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:3-7,12

• Born of water - That which is born of flesh. [earthly things]
• Born of the Spirit - that which is born of the Spirit is spirit [heavenly things]

When we are born again, through believing the message of the Gospel, we are baptized into Christ, by the Spirit.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13



having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:23


Now, if this verse said... having been born again, through water baptism, then I would be right there with you, teaching that salvation is through water baptism, but since it plainly says... having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God.

• The incorruptible seed is the message of the Gospel.
• The incorruptible seed, is not water baptism.

Here's a question for you, based on the following scripture -

• “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
• When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Were these disciples saved by water baptism, or by the hearing and believing on Christ Jesus?




And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-5









JLB

that's how mine started too

maybe it's something going around bro

you'll be in my prayers

i know it's no fun

It is only right and propper that you quote everything Jesus said on the subject. In the verse you quote Jesus said "those who believe in him will never die" (paraphrasing). My question to you is, "What happens to those who cease to believe?" The answer is below.

Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God. (Luk 9:62)

Yes, there's definitely a connection. Origen's "being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost" is identical to what Irenaeus wrote about them.