Do We Sleep?

Why must eternal be interpreted as existing? The twin towers fell. They will eternally remain destructed. They will not be resurrected. They cannot be pieced back together. They have been eternally destructed. They no longer exist.

You easily grasp that some verses of prophecy refer to our gathering and some to after the tribulation.
Can you imagine a possibility of different timeframes also with verses having to do with the outer darkness, wailing and gnashing of teeth, and a time of torment?

Do you understand what I am proposing there?

Hello Shrume,

Then you are not disagreeing with me, but with scripture, because that's where I got my information from.

The above is correct whether in the body or out of the body for both the righteous and the wicked, as the spirits of both are still existing. The failure of the body is not the end of the spirit.

The above is false! Scripture makes it very clear that the spirit is conscious and aware after the death of the body. Your problem, along with many others, is the word "death." You give it your own definition of meaning unconsciousness or extinction.
Scripture does not support that claim. Consider the following:

The rich man and Lazarus - Luke 16:19-31

It is written that both men died and were buried. Their spirits departed from their bodies and Lazarus was taken to Abraham's side while the rich man went down into Hades, where he was/is in torment in flame, both places being in Sheol/Hades and separated by a great chasm. The rich man is still there as I write this. The only way you can deny this is by making it a parable, except that parables don't use real names and real places.

Once again, your error is that you are perceiving the words "cut off" to mean "non-existence." The words "cut off" means "completely separated from God, a complete loss of well being, ruination" and that while existing. You can't experience torment, punishment, no rest day or night or the smoke of ones torment ascending up forever and ever, unless one is existing, conscious and aware.

Regarding the above, you are not taking into consideration that the unrighteous dead will also be resurrected after the millennial period, receiving indestructible resurrected bodies made to endure their punishment in the lake of fire.

"and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

The word "Anastasia" translated "Resurrection" is defined as a physical, bodily, standing up again, with Jesus as the example. Therefore, when the wicked are resurrected, they will receive a resurrected body which will endure their punishment in the lake of fire.

Again, you are taking the word "destruction" translated from the word "apollumi" and giving it your own definition to mean non-existence. The word "Apollumi" comes from the base word "apoleia" which is defined as follows: (Pay attention to what is highlighted in red)

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Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Short Definition: destruction, ruin, loss
Definition: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

Regarding human beings, neither the words Apollumi, Apoleia nor olethros infer annihilation or extinction. It is the translated word "destruction" that you interpret as non-existence.

All people who have come into the world will exist forever. Life and death are both states of on-going existence, which is determined by ones state of being with God. If a person has not been reconciled to God and dies in that state, like the rich man, their spirit will depart from the body and will go into Hades where they will remain, conscious and aware until the great white throne judgment, where they will be resurrected out and judged and then thrown into the lake of fire, conscious and existing.

If you don't believe this, then that is your right. But I've already studied this for many years and I know the answers to this.

You are comparing inanimate, corporeal, man made objects, to the spirit of human beings. Regarding the spirit, we have scripture, which I have already shared with you, that demonstrates the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body.

When the man next to Jesus said "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom" Jesus said, "today you will be with me in paradise." How could Jesus promise this to the man when they both died that very same day? It was because Jesus was referring to their spirits departing from the body at the time of death. Their bodies were dead, but their spirits were very much conscious and aware. I believe that Jesus' reference to "paradise" was referring to the same place where Abraham and Lazarus were, which Abraham called a place of comfort (paradise). After 3 days and nights, Jesus' spirit returned to His body in the tomb and he resurrected just as He said He would.

When a believer dies, their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord, while the spirits of the wicked go down into Hades, conscious and existing.

The reference to outer darkness, is also a characteristic of the lake of fire. It would have to be, since scripture states that anyone whose name is not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. When we think of and observe fire here on earth, we think of something that is hot and that emits light, which it does. Well, it may be because of the reference to outer darkness, that the lake of fire may burn without emitting any light, but will burn black and with tremendous heat.

Since we know that anyone whose name is not found in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire and Jesus makes mention of outer darkness, then I would consider darkness to be a characteristic of the lake of fire.

Yes, I remember -the rich man and lazarus. And the point I had made was that that story/parable deals with a man in torment, while on earth, people are going about their usual business. So it is not taking place in the timeframe of after the judgement. It is taking place in the timeframe of while it is not to late to go and warn his brother if it would be allowed for him to do so. Therefore, it takes place before the resurrection or all, before the judgement and before the lake of fire.

So yes, it displays a conscious awareness. It does not then necessarily follow that this conscious awareness will be there after the second death.

No sir! The event of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable, nor is it taking place on the earth. The first part is taking place on the earth when Lazarus is laid at the gate of the rich man, but then it is stated that both die, with the rich man's spirit being in Hades, not on the surface of the earth. You might want to go back and read that again.

The theme of a parable is symbolism representing the literal. That said, the rich man and Lazarus uses real names and the real location of Hades. That's not a parable.

You seriously need to go back and study that entire event, because your information is not correct. The rich man asked father Abraham to allow Lazarus to go back to his father's house (on the surface of the earth) to warn his five brothers. But Abraham told him that they had Moses and the prophets (the word of God) to warn them so that they don't come to the same place of torment that he was in. Once a person dies, there is no coming back and there is no longer any opportunity for salvation. The person who dies without Christ, their record is sealed.

Regarding the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus is sharing an event that He witnessed prior to appearing in the flesh. In support of this, Jesus starts off with "There was once a poor beggar named Lazarus, " which would be in the past tense and not something that has yet to happen.

It always amazes me that, those who believe that the spirit is dormant or unconscious after the death of the body, that when we produce the event of the rich man and Lazarus, they call it a parable and thereby getting rid of the proof that the spirit is conscious and aware after death and that there is eternal, conscious torment for the wicked after the death of the body. Then they say,
show us scriptural proof."

If the wicked are burned up as soon as they hit the fire, then there would be no reason for everlasting fire. Once that last person is thrown in, God could just shut it down. However, the words "everlasting fire" is in reference to the state of those suffering in the flame, i.e. their suffering in the flame is everlasting while being fully conscious of it.

You know, I really DID need to read it again! I was remembering some of it wrongly.

But I think you aren't really investing your whole mind in our conversation and may be kneejerking a little because I didn't say it was taking place on earth. I said he was asking to go and warn his brothers (which I got wrong - he was asking that another dead man be sent to warn his brothers) and that his brothers were still on earth. If his brothers were still on earth then the timeframe of the story/parable (yes I see that it bothers you to call it a story or parable but I don't know what else to call it) is before the resurrection, before the judgement, before the lake of fire. Otherwise, his brothers wouldn't be on earth while there was still time for them to be saved by a warning.

Now then, if he is in the place he is in, (Hades), before the resurrection or judgement, it is quite obvious that he is not "dormant or unconscious" after the death of his body. Otherwise, he couldn't be speaking as he does. So I hear you when you say it amazes you when people think we are "dormant or unconscious" after the death of the body, but why have you assumed that I think that? I haven't stated it, so I'm not quite sure where that has come from...you could just be confusing me with another poster?

Now, if the timeframe of the story is sometime before the judgement or lake of fire, it does not necessarily follow that the place the rich man is in is the same place and condition he will be in after the resurrection and judgement. So while he is conscious and aware sometime before the judgement occurs, it does not automatically follow that he will be conscious and aware after the judgement.

This is why I said you have a firm grasp on some of the endtime verses and prophecies describing pre-gathering while others are describing postgathering and wanted you to try to conceive of the possibility that some verses concerning other things could also be speaking of different timeframes (such as pre-judgement and postjudgement.).

Has that explained my thought any better?

I am disagreeing with your understanding of scripture.

I know that is your belief, but I am convinced from the scriptures that your understanding of death is wrong.

There are many scriptures that show what death is. Death is not living. If a person is "conscious and aware", he is not dead, he is alive.

Job 7:
21) And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Ps 6:
5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ps 30:
9) What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

Ps 115:
17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Isa 38:
18) For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Dan 12:
2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame andeverlasting contempt.

Ecc 9:
5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

I know that you and Nehemiah believe that the OT does not paint an accurate picture of death, and that Jesus cleared it up when he told the story in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man. Luke 16 is a parable, a story used to make a point. The point of the parable in Luke 16 is in verse 31. The idea of the immortal soul came from the Greeks, not scripture. In the time of Christ, that belief had infiltrated Judaism to the extent that many of the scribes and Pharisees believed in it. Jesus told the parable to get their attention, and once he had it, he made the point that "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." He was right.

Death is an enemy, not the "doorway to Jesus" (1 Cor 15:26). Our hope is in the coming resurrection, not in dying.

I am aware there is very little chance that you'll change your view, but some might.

This is a fallacy which is repeated over and over again by Christians -- WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

So just to make sure that you understand that the soul and spirit are imperishable (mortality pertains to bodies), let me give you a quote from the book of Job (perhaps the oldest book in the Bible).

Here is what Job believed with all his heart and stated very clearly (Job 19:25-27):

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

So let's sum up what we can learn from this:

1. Job knows through God's revelation that his Redeemer (God, possibly even Christ) lives at that very moment, and that "at the latter day" (which would be at the second coming of Christ) He will stand upon the earth. This in itself is a tremendous revelation. Here is a man who was probably a contemporary of Abraham (about 2,000 B.C.) and is fully aware that (a) he needs a Redeemer and (b) he has a Redeemer and (c) his Redeemer will be on earth at the second coming of Christ (Enoch also wrote about the second coming).

2. Job knows that one day he will die, and that the worms will consume his body. Yet he can look beyond that and see himself in a resurrected body standing before God and seeing God. How could that be possible unless he believed that his soul and spirit were imperishable, and as a result he would receive a resurrected body? HERE IS PROOF POSITIVE that the patriarchs believed that the soul was imperishable. So you had better believe this now, and not keep harping on the Greeks.

3. To further reinforce his belief that he will be resurrected and see God, he puts a double emphasis on this -- Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another. So this is not by proxy, but a personal conviction about a personal encounter with God after he dies and is resurrected by his Redeemer,

4. Now remember that Job had no contact with the Greeks and knew nothing about Greek philosophy. Greek philosophy began around 600 B.C., long after the book of Job was written,

If all sleep, then who would be the 'cloud of witnesses' referred to in Hebrews 12?

There is no doubt that Job believed in the resurrection. There is no evidence that Job believed he would be alive between his death and resurrection.

The "cloud of witnesses" are those heroes of the faith listed in Heb 11. The ones who died, not having received the promises (Heb 11:13). It's not saying that they are literally a cloud living in heaven right now. The written records of them are a witness to us.

They will be resurrected at the resurrection of the just.

Shrume, as I have previously posted, the reference to "sleeping in the grave" is referring to the body, not the spirit. Understand that the human being is made up of body soul and spirit? When scripture refers to sleep, it is speaking about the body, not the spirit.

"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Butt if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

When you run across scripture that speaks about sleeping as in death and you have other scripture that demonstrates conscious awareness of the spirit after death, then you can only come to one conclusion, because both can't be right. Therefore, when the scripture speaks about sleeping in death, it is referring to the body only, since we have other scripture that shows the spirit conscious and aware after death. This is why it is important to cross-reference and compare scripture.

What people do instead of weighing out all the scriptures, they pick a side, dig in, and fight tooth and nail with anyone who challenges there position. This is terrible exegesis. For example, when those who have chosen the side of soul-sleep, when presented with the event of "the rich man and Lazarus." They reduce it to a parable in order to get rid of it, because it is detrimental to their position of soul-sleep. I say don't pick a side, but perform proper exegesis to come to a right conclusion.

In the scriptures that I provided above, Paul says to be at home in the body is to be away from the Lord and to be away from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. The reference to being "at home" or "away" from the body, is referring to the spirit, which departs at the time of death. Likewise, in the letter to the Philippians, Paul says that he is torn between his spirit remaining in his body, stating that to depart and be with Christ is better by far. Therefore, if his spirit was to go into the ground and sleep when his body died, how could Paul claim that it was far better to be with Christ if his spirit is in the ground sleeping?

All that I have been doing is trying to get you to take these things into consideration regarding this issue. We have many scriptures demonstrating the conscious awareness of the spirit after death. Instead of doing what everyone does, which is to create or use an existing apologetic in order to refute those scriptures, why not study them and come to a right and honest conclusion?

Regarding the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, parables use symbolism to represent the literal. The rich man and Lazarus uses the real names of Abraham, Lazarus, Moses and references the prophets and the rich man's five brothers. It also uses the real location of Sheol/Hades. Parables don't do that.

It is reference to the PERSON. When a person dies, the person is dead, not partly dead and partly alive. People are integrated beings, they do not split into various parts at death, with only the body dying, but the soul/spirit continuing to live.

It is talking about the PERSON sleeping, not just his body.

Being "away from the body" is not referring to death, but the return of Christ. Again, death is an enemy, not the gateway to the afterlife.

Paul's dying would not result in gain for him, because he would be dead. I believe there are three scenarios presented in those verses. Paul knew that whether he lived or died, it would be for the good (gain) of the gospel. But what he truly longed for was the return of Christ. Then is when we will depart these fleshly bodies and be with the Lord.

The only scripture that show conscious awareness after death is the parable of Luke 16 and the "souls crying under the altar" in Rev 6. Luke 16 is a parable, and Rev 6 is figurative, showing that it will be awhile before those killed for their faith during the trib will be resurrected.

I am convinced that the right conclusion is that death means death, not conscious awareness. If a person is consciously aware of things, he is not dead. That makes death an oxymoron.

Paul was not talking about his death, but about the return of Christ (the rapture). THEN is when the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead.

Yes, at death the spirit departs. It leaves, and is gone. The person is dead.

Again, Paul's referring to "departing and being with Christ" is not talking about his death, but about the return of Christ.

No, there are not "many". There is the parable of Luke 16, and the figurative "souls under the altar" in Rev 6.

Those who believe that the soul/spirit continues to live on after death should not ignore the many OT scriptures that explain what the state of death is like. There is no thought, no work, no emotion, they cannot praise God, etc.

I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the right and honest conclusion is that death means death. Dead people are not living people.

Not always.

The one in Luke 16 does. There is no rule of hermeneutics that states a parable cannot use the names of real people or places.

I will not debate with you anymore regarding this, but will leave you with the following:

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Matthew 17:1-3 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus.

Acts 7:55-57 - But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices; they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Luke 16:19-31 - “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ” ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ “

Luke 23:39-42 – “One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him, ‘Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!’ But the other criminal rebuked him, ‘Don’t you fear God,’ he said, ‘since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.’ Then he said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ Jesus answered him, ’I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.’ ”

II Corinthians 5:6-8 –“Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”

Phil.1:22-24 – “If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.”

Phil.2:9-11 – “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee would bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

1Pet.3:18-20 – “He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.”

Hebrews 4:12 - “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”

1 Samuel 28:11-15 “Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” “Bring up Samuel,” he said. When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!” The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?” The woman said “I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.” “What does he look like?” he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ ”

Revelation 5:2-3 - “And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?’ But no one in heaven, or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.”

Revelation 5:13: - Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:

Note: "under the earth in both scriptures, would be referring to the spirits in Hades.

Revelation 6:9–10 when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

Actually, you probably will. You've said it before, and yet here we are again. It's OK, I've said the same thing...

We exchange a few posts, neither can convince the other to change their view, so a grandiose "I will not discuss this with you any more" comes out, but then a few months later the topic comes up again, and we exchange a few more posts on the subject.

Happens all the time..

Matt 17:
9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Yep. Stephen was entrusting his life to Jesus Christ. Stephen is currently dead, but he will be raised from the dead at the rapture.

As previously discussed, it's a parable.

Move the comma and you'll get the true meaning of the verse:

Luke 23:
43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Both Jesus and the thief died that day. Three days and three nights later, the Father raised Jesus Christ from the dead. The thief is still dead, awaiting resurrection.

Previously explained.

Yes. Everyone, whether they're dead or alive, will one day stand before Jesus Christ.

Jesus proclaimed his victory to the imprisoned demons in Tartarus after he was resurrected (made alive by spirit).

Amen! Does not prove or even suggest that people continue to live after they die.

It was a demon (familiar spirit) impersonating Samuel. Samuel had died.

It's figurative. Dead men can't sing. There is no thought in death, the dead don't know anything. (Ecc 9:5-10)

As previously explained, it's figurative.

You can't use a few figurative NT scriptures to undo what the definitive OT scriptures state about death.

Our hope is not in dying, but in the coming resurrections.

The word "Vision" does not mean a hologram or inanimate object as you are suggesting. This is apologetic that others claim in order to get rid of the proof. And that's exactly what you are continuing to do, is get rid of the proof. Don't you notice that with every proof of scripture that I provide, your response is to discredit, circumvent, or distort the scripture? My pointe of Moses and Elijah is that they were having a conversation with Jesus about His departure. They weren't just holograms, as you are suggesting. The fact that Peter offers to make three shelters, one for each tells us that it was Moses and Elijah.

Well, that didn't last long..

(I'm not chiding you...)
All I'm suggesting is what the Bible says, that it was a vision.

Seeing a vision of Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus is not proof that dead people are alive. Also, apparently in the vision they had bodies, something even you agree they will not get until the future, right? It was a vision. The Bible plainly states that Moses is dead (Josh 1:2). I am fully aware that many people believe that Elijah was carried off to heaven to be with God, but John 3:13 contradicts that understanding. Elijah was carried off into heaven (the sky), and moved somewhere else on earth by God. That's why some of the school of prophets wanted to send people off to look for him. At some point he died, as all men do (Heb 9:27), and he is awaiting the resurrection of the just. Also, if Elijah could go to heaven before Jesus Christ paid the price for sin, then anyone could, and the sacrifice of Christ was not necessary.

But you have not provided proof, ATW... You think they are proof, but they aren't. They can all be logically explained and not contradict all the OT scripture that define what death is. And you have yet to address all the OT scripture that explain what death is.

Oh, no doubt that the vision was very real in appearance. But it was a vision, just as the vision to Peter in Acts 10 was not real, unless you want to suggest that the sheet with all the animals in it was actually there?

Yeah, except for vision (inanimate objects, holograms) don't have conversations with the Lord. So use your head regarding this information.

Believe as you will. It is time for me to discontinue this, because I have spent too much time in contending for the truth on this issue.

I'll say this, the spirit of deception has crept into every Biblical truth in these last days. It is unfortunate that Satan has found a foot-hold on those in Christ to deliver his distorted messages on these issues.

I thought only the Catholics dealt with necromancy.( giving life to dead things )

Amen, Chapter 11 of John I believe gives us the most information we can look at other passages that refer to it.

Dead is dead and living is living, no limbo in between Breathing is a work of the living.Corrupted flesh returning the rudiments of this world as worm food takes no living work .

The spirit life of the flesh is in the blood, but literal blood without spirit is dead. One of the mistakes the Jehovah witnesses make. Can't contain spirit life in a vial or view it under a microscope. We walk by faith.

For as the body without the spirit "is dead", so faith without works is dead also.James 2:

As God breathed into the dead rudiments of this world (flesh and blood) He became a living breathing being.

Genesis 2:7And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Lazarus was literal "dead asleep" for four days with nothing that could qualify him to hear the word of God. The voice of the resurrection gave him the wakeup call. Just as God breathed in spirit life into the dead flesh and blood of Adam.
His word is Spirit and it is life..... the flesh profits for nothing, zero.
To paint a picture of the second and final resurrection the book of John informs us

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.John11:11-13

Many times, the parables were misunderstood.

They did not mix faith, the unseen spiritual understanding or called hidden mana in what they did hear. So He told them Lazarus was literally dead, again with no qualifier that could give him the breath of life.


Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.John11:14

Plainly literally. The demonstration of the second and final resurrection had come to a end

"Come forth"... will be the call on the last day when those in heaven fast asleep, and those reining on earth alive in their bodies will meet in the air and both in a the twinkling of the eye receive the goal of their new faith, their incoruptible bodies) they received at their new birth

And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.John11 :43

Yeah, except for vision (inanimate objects, holograms) don't have conversations with the Lord. So use your head regarding this information.

Prophecy comes after many manners to include vision. Moses and Elijah simply represent the law and prophets as to how they communicate with each other.

The flesh of those two returned to the lifeless spiritless dust it was formed of .The Catholics who walk by sight hope it was really those two in the flesh . They are still looking for the bones of Moses to resurrect and worship

Lying spirits have conversations with the Lord.



Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.Mathew 4:2-10