Oh goody another OSAS thread!
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I hadn't seen this post earlier or I would have never let it stand unchallenged. It is a highly deceptive post. Notice how he doesn't give Chapter and verse. While it is true in the Scripture he posts that Jesus is referring to His immediate Apostles in this passage, it ISN'T the passage I posted that he tried to rebut! Also, Jesus CONTINUES His prayer in John 17, the chapter JPT referenced, to include ALL believers.
Here Jesus makes sure that those like JPT DO NOT just apply His promises to only His immediate Apostles.
John 17:
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “I DO NOT PRAY FOR THESE ALONE, but also for those who [j]will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
Just to be clear, here is the verse I referenced from another poster who did include the Chapter and verse, which was NOT John 17, but rather John 6!
John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
So you be the judge on who is spreading false doctrine, who has itching ears and certainly who has taken Scripture out of context.
Here Jesus makes sure that those like JPT DO NOT just apply His promises to only His immediate Apostles.
John 17:
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “I DO NOT PRAY FOR THESE ALONE, but also for those who [j]will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
Just to be clear, here is the verse I referenced from another poster who did include the Chapter and verse, which was NOT John 17, but rather John 6!
John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
So you be the judge on who is spreading false doctrine, who has itching ears and certainly who has taken Scripture out of context.
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Yet here you are opening a whole new thread where that is precisely what will happen.
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Yes, there is. Living on this earth invoking his only begotten son's name, living as if he lied in his word, and hoping like hell when you die that's when you'll be worthy of him keeping it. No one can interfere with the status of eternal salvation now.
God said it. Man cannot do a thing to overcome that. Except think he can.
God said it. Man cannot do a thing to overcome that. Except think he can.
You won't find any Scripture to support this strange doctrine. Sinners are justified -- declared righteous -- by God the moment they believe God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. No one has to wait until Judgment Day (which is for the unsaved).
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness... Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Rom 4:3, 23-25)
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness... Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Rom 4:3, 23-25)
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R
You probably can't see the circular reasoning in your argument.
This is very common in once saved always saved arguments. You're saying that since a person is justified the moment they believe (which is true) that means they are always justified, because once you are justified you can not become unjustified. That's called circular reasoning.
This is very common in once saved always saved arguments. You're saying that since a person is justified the moment they believe (which is true) that means they are always justified, because once you are justified you can not become unjustified. That's called circular reasoning.
That is not circular reasoning but a spiritual fact. The moment a person is justified by God's grace, he or she is also born again, and becomes a child of God. That is an irreversible fact, and corresponds to human relationships. You can never "not become" the child of your father and mother, even if you cut them off from yourself.
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R
You used circular reasoning to support your argument. Whether or not the argument is factual is what we are discussing. What I'm pointing out to you is you used the famous 'once saved always saved' technique of circular reasoning to defend your argument. It goes like this:
"Justification/salvation can't be lost because a person is justified/saved the moment they first believe."
You have the predetermined opinion that justification/salvation is irreversible so you argue that since a person is justified/saved the moment they first believe that means they can never lose it. That's called circular reasoning: Using the argument itself to answer the argument.
"Justification/salvation can't be lost because a person is justified/saved the moment they first believe."
You have the predetermined opinion that justification/salvation is irreversible so you argue that since a person is justified/saved the moment they first believe that means they can never lose it. That's called circular reasoning: Using the argument itself to answer the argument.
R
Once saved always saved has so many holes in it's various arguments for it to be true. For example, in one argument it is said that the truly saved person will never leave, or else they were never saved to begin with and were never a son. Then the story of the Prodigal Son who leaves the father is used to show that you can never lose your salvation and will always be a son.
'Once saved always saved' is a very confused and contradictory doctrine. On the other hand, what the Bible actually says is very clear, plain, reasonable, and understandable: You are justified and saved as long as you continue to believe. No deep, long winded discussion required.
'Once saved always saved' is a very confused and contradictory doctrine. On the other hand, what the Bible actually says is very clear, plain, reasonable, and understandable: You are justified and saved as long as you continue to believe. No deep, long winded discussion required.
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Of course Jesus prays for all who believe in Him.
But that’s not the point is it.
It’s His sheep being lost, not about who Jesus prays for.
Here is your verse.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:39-40
So it’s God’s will that Jesus lose none that the Father gives Him.
Who did the Father give to Jesus?
Does the Father choose some to be given to Jesus for salvation whiles others are not?
JPT
But that’s not the point is it.
It’s His sheep being lost, not about who Jesus prays for.
Here is your verse.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:39-40
So it’s God’s will that Jesus lose none that the Father gives Him.
Who did the Father give to Jesus?
Does the Father choose some to be given to Jesus for salvation whiles others are not?
JPT
N
right?
john 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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1 john 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
hebrews 10
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
no explaining needed
clear as day
praise God
john 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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1 john 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
hebrews 10
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
no explaining needed
clear as day
praise God
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R
See, the biggest problem with debating 'once saved always saved' believers is getting them to decide which camp they're going to be in. Are they going to be traditional 'once saved always saved' people and insist that true believers never leave the father, or are they going to be new Hypergrace 'once saved always saved' people and insist the person who leaves the father is still saved? Until you settle that with them they bounce back and forth between the conflicting and contradictory 'once saved always saved' arguments according to which ever side is convenient at the moment to defend their 'once saved always saved' beliefs.
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