what do you think about OSAS?

This is a dead horse topic argued over Constantly in the BDF.

This is a dead horse topic argued over Constantly in the BDF.

I do not believe in OSAS .. It is one of the calvinist TULIP dogmas..

I believe people can fall away from the truth.. It is not so much as losing ones salvation but the case of the individual casting away their salvation by deciding to no longer believe Jesus and or believe in the Atonement Jesus secured for our salvation when He was executed on the cross..

I do not believe in OSAS ...

I believe people can fall away from the truth..

It is not so much as losing ones salvation but the case of the individual casting away their salvation

by deciding to no longer believe Jesus and or believe in the Atonement Jesus secured for our salvation when He was executed on the cross..

Me either

But it is a truth that some are destined to fulfill certain missions. Pharaoh and Judas to name a few.
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
(2Ti 2:19-21 KJV)

There is a choice to purge oneself through Christ to become part of the Vessel of honor; Jesus Christ.


However there is certain amount of predestination involved.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(Rom 9:19-22 KJV)
Isn't casting away losing? Semantics....
God will give us up to uncleanness through the lusts of our own hearts; vile affections, not retaining God in our knowledge, giving us over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient
Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Who will render to every man according to his deeds.



(Rom 1:24,26,28; 11:20-22; Heb 10:26-31; Rom 2:6 )

Romans 1 has nothing to do with Christians, but with the nation of Israel.

Romans 11:7, 11-13, 20-21, 25 show the passage is referring to a NATIONAL salvation, not INDIVIDUAL. The passage is talking about the nation of Israel chose to reject God, so God turned to the Gentile nations instead.

But Paul warns that the Gentile nations will be cast off if they choose to reject BELIEVING in God for salvation. Never said they have to maintain works to keep their salvation.

No.
These comments are being made in general in reference to all from the beginning of creation until the time in which Paul is speaking.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:16-20 KJV)

The clause "Are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" is being spoken in the present tense. To this day it applies.
It is being spoken corporately but is based on individuals.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

The Greek word that is translated unbelief in verse 23 implies disobedience. Here is part of Bauer had to say i relation to the the word in his work....

1) Unwillingness to commit oneself to another or respond positively to the other’s words or actions, lack of belief, unbelief (Mitt-Wilck. I/2, 155, 11; Jos., Ant. 2, 327; 19, 127) in our lit. always with God or divine action as referent (cp. Cercidas Iamb. [III B.C.], fgm. 18 II, 8 Coll. Alex. p. 217 [=Anon. in turpilucrum 74: AnthLG, Diehl3 fasc.3=Knox 1929 p. 234]; Plut., Coriol. 232 [38, 4], Alex. 706 [75, 2] ἀ. πρὸς τὰ θεῖα καὶ καταφρόνησις αὐτῶν, De Superstit. 2 p. 165b; Ael. Aristid. 47, 66 K.=23 p. 462 D.; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 118 ἀ. πρὸς τὸν τοῦ κόσμου παντὸς εὐεργέτην [w. ἀχαριστία], Mut. Nom. 201 al.; Jos., Ant. 10, 142). As response to Jesus by inhabitants of Nazareth Mt 13:58; Mk 6:6; a parent of a possessed pers. 9:24; disciples Mt 17:20 v.l. (for ὀλιγοπιστίαν); of some Judeans [ἀ]π̣ιστεί̣[α] PEg2 19; of Israelites toward God Ro 11:20 (τῇ ἀπιστίᾳ=because of their unbelief; ACharue, L’Incrédulité des Juifs dans le NT 1929; on the dat. of cause Schmid III 57; IV 59; M. Ant. 3, 1; ins in ENachmanson, Eranos 11, 1911, 220–25), 23; Hb 3:19. διακρίνεσθαι τῇ ἀπιστίᾳ waver in disbelief Ro 4:20. ἐποίησα ἐν ἀ. while I was still an unbeliever 1 Ti 1:13. καρδία πονηρὰ ἀπιστίας an evil, unbelieving heart Hb 3:12 (on the gen. s. Mlt. 74).—Among Christians w. διψυχία 2 Cl 19:2; w. ἀνομία GJs 20:1 (not pap). Personif. as one of the chief sins Hs 9, 15, 3. (Opp. πίστις) IEph 8:2.—As a characteristic of this age (w. ἀνομία) ending of Mark (16:14) in the Freer Ms. ln. 2.

2) lack of commitment to a relationship or pledge, unfaithfulness (X., An. 3, 2, 4 et al.; UPZ 18, 5 [163 B.C.]; Wsd 14:25; Philo, Spec. Leg. 2, 8, Decal. 172; Jos., Ant. 14, 349) Ro 3:3 (JGriffiths, ET 53, ’41, 118).—M-M. TW.

Couple that with context and other words used.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
(Rom 11:25-30 KJV)

The Gospel; true salvation is to turn from ungodliness through Christ Jesus because He was manifested to take away our sin.
So Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word; The commandments; the Law) down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word; The commandments; the Law) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ; the Law; The Commandments) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart (and in thy mind): that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
For Christ (the word; the Law; The Commandments in our hearts; minds and mouths) is the end of the law (written with ink and on tables of stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth.

(Rom 10:6-8; 10:4 )


Incidentally Unbelief in verse 11:30 is translated from a different Greek word. Here is what the BDAG cited...

ἀπείθεια, ας, ἡ (s. ἀπειθής; X., Mem. 3, 5, 5 et al.; ins; pap; 4 Macc 8:9, 18: 12:4; PsSol 17:20) disobedience, in our lit. always of disob. toward God (cp. Jos., Ant. 3, 316); somet. w. the connotation of disbelief in the Christian gospel (see ἀπειθέω). Those who oppose God are called υἱοὶ τῆς ἀ. Eph 2:2; 5:6; Col 3:6 (some mss. om.; s. KKuhn, NTS 7, ’61, 339 for Qumran parallels). Of disob. of Israelites Ro 11:30; Hb 4:6, 11; of all humanity Ro 11:32. Personified Hs 9, 15, 3.—DELG s.v. πείθομαι. M-M. TW.


It has always been an issue in regards to disobedience. And it has always been an issue of us refusing the Cure; the indwelling of our LORD GOD in our hearts directing our path through Jesus Christ. Have you not read.....

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of the Christ;

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment (hearkening unto the LORD to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law) which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word (Christ; his commandments and his statutes which are written in the book of the law) the is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. The epistle of Christ; written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; For it is GOD that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure.

(Deu 30:6; Col2:11; Deu 30:10-14; 2Co 3:3-5 )

first of all OSAS means "once saved, always saved"
even though that acronym might look like "oasis"

but anyway, cast your votes

and I believe that it ultimately boils down to who sustains salvation
man or God?

You cannot deny this is works salvation. We obey the Gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8), then we already are obedient in some way.

False converts, who are part of the faith, but not of true faith will indeed fall away.

Also, John Calvin did not teach unconditional eternal security, here is what he taught:

He did not believe salvation was a one time thing. God bless.

Me either

But it is a truth that some are destined to fulfill certain missions. Pharaoh and Judas to name a few.
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
(2Ti 2:19-21 KJV)

There is a choice to purge oneself through Christ to become part of the Vessel of honor; Jesus Christ.


However there is certain amount of predestination involved.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(Rom 9:19-22 KJV)
Isn't casting away losing? Semantics....
God will give us up to uncleanness through the lusts of our own hearts; vile affections, not retaining God in our knowledge, giving us over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient
Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Who will render to every man according to his deeds.



(Rom 1:24,26,28; 11:20-22; Heb 10:26-31; Rom 2:6 )

In Calvinism Irresistible grace and Perseverance of the saints the I and P in TULIP combined are indistinguishable from OSAS doctrine..

Definitions below..

"I" in "TULIP" stands for "Irresistible Grace."



"In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended."





"P" in "TULIP" stands for "Perseverance of the Saints."



All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of the almighty God and thus preserved to the end."

Oh boy, because we're just not getting enough of this incessant "I'm right and you're wrong" arguing in Bible Discussion, so lets blast it all over!