Who is Really Poor Under God?

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newton3003

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2017
437
42
28
#1
Consider Revelation 3:15-18 which says the following: “I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.”

There is a confrontation of sorts here, but who is involved? Who goes with God and who doesn’t? At first glance you might say that the person, or city, talking is not of God since they seem obsessed with their riches and God isn’t mentioned, whereas the person being talked to is poor and wretched, and didn’t Jesus say in his Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5:3, “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven?”

But we are implored not to pick and choose parts from the Bible while ignoring the rest, since 2 Timothy 3:16 says, “ALL Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.” So what is going on here? Who is really with God and who isn’t?

God in Genesis gives His first commandment to Adam and Eve, in Genesis 1:28, to “be fruitful.” Well, the person speaking seems to be fruitful since they’ve prospered and are rich. The person being spoken to is poor, but in what way? He is poor in that, in the context of the Bible, he has not seen the Light of God and is therefore blind with ignorance. In the Revelation passage, it seems evident by the way the rich person is talking to him that the poor person believes that if he had riches like the rich person, he would be complete, not realizing that he would not be complete under God.

For God may have told us to be fruitful, but He also tells us, as Jesus said, to love Him with all one’s heart, soul and mind. But to do so means to perform good works to that end and to have faith in Him. Jesus also told his disciples to spread the Word of God, that whoever believes in Him will be saved. For the poor man in Revelation, he believes it is only enough that he be materially rich, since he is unaware of the riches associated with one’s faith in God.

So it appears that the person in revelation is mocking the poor man, saying, ‘You want to be like me, then fine, strive for fine things so you may be rich like me,’ knowing that the person will still be poor since he is ignorant of God. And it may be assumed that the person in Revelation knows that inasmuch as a rich person will not see God, that person will dispose of his riches before his time comes to leave the earth. Those riches could be given to the poor man being spoken to, but that doesn’t bring the poor man any closer to God in that sense.

That poor man may not be “poor in spirit,” since he aspires to be rich without any real efforts of his own, and he seems to do so out of arrogance. His attitude may very well be, if he even knew of God, ‘Fine, if God exists and He said that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to the poor, then am I not poor, and so am I not deserving of the Kingdom of Heaven? For this, GOD OWES ME.”

The conversation between the person and the poor man in Revelation could very well be between Cain and Abel. Abel prospered, inasmuch as he raised sheep. In that sense, he was fruitful. Cain, on the other hand, was not fruitful. He pulled out of the ground a plant which happened to be there, had already existed, and wasn’t the result of Cain’s efforts to raise it. Cain in his ignorance didn’t realize that his ambition of merely possessing things that already existed did not make him a better person than Adam in the Eyes of God. Cain would have been better off raising something, working by the sweat of his brow than to merely take something that originally belonged to someone else, in this case, to God.

You may walk along a busy street, wearing fine clothes that you obtained as the result of your own efforts to prosper by the sweat of your brow, and you may be confronted by a homeless person who has rags for clothes. The homeless person may say, ‘I would like to be rich like you,’ not realizing that under God, riches are obtained not by asking for them but by one’s own efforts. They may not realize that under God, the poor who will possess the Kingdom of Heaven are not those who purposely do nothing for themselves; the poor that Jesus spoke of in his Sermon on the Mount are those who cannot help themselves because of things beyond their control and so would need help from others. Those are the poor under God.
 

glf1

Active member
Jun 10, 2018
314
124
43
#2
The spiritually wretched, poor, weak, blind, and naked; would have to be those who are remaining babes in Christ: who only get the milk of the 1st principals of the oracles of God, being unskilled in the word of truth verses those who are mature spiritually because they have had their senses trained, by reason of use of the word, to discern both good and evil. Sadly that's us and which makes us a part of those of whom the scriptures speaks, saying; except there's a falling away, the end shall not come. And in 1Tim 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils."
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,921
13,607
113
#3
The conversation between the person and the poor man in Revelation could very well be between Cain and Abel. Abel prospered, inasmuch as he raised sheep. In that sense, he was fruitful. Cain, on the other hand, was not fruitful. He pulled out of the ground a plant which happened to be there, had already existed, and wasn’t the result of Cain’s efforts to raise it. Cain in his ignorance didn’t realize that his ambition of merely possessing things that already existed did not make him a better person than Adam in the Eyes of God. Cain would have been better off raising something, working by the sweat of his brow than to merely take something that originally belonged to someone else, in this case, to God.

Cain was a tiller of the ground.
(Genesis 4:2)
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
and you will eat the plants of the field;
By the sweat of your face you will eat bread
(Genesis 3:17-19)

this doesn't seem to me to be describing simply plucking fruit off the ground without doing any work to tend it.


And Abel was a keeper of flocks
(Genesis 4:2)
at this time the LORD had not given meat for food - not until Noah ((re: Genesis 9:3)) - but only every seed-bearing plant ((re: Genesis 1:29)). so in a very tangible sense Abel wasn't 'producing' fruit but Cain was.
going by only the text -- it is Cain who brought '
the sweat of his brow' as an offering, not Abel. what did Abel do to produce sheep? he tended, while Cain tilled.


God rejects man's work.

If you make an altar of stone for Me, you shall not build it of cut stones,
for if you wield your tool on it, you will profane it.
(Exodus 20:25)

our hope must be set on Him, not on what we do. salvation is through belief, not through performing actions.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,921
13,607
113
#4
I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich
He says buy gold from Him so that you may be rich.

How does a person become rich by buying gold? How much is He offering gold for? He has to be asking less than the worth of the gold right? Else the best you could do by buying gold is break even, certainly not become rich.

A shrewd businessman would sell gold and profit by it - so the buyer would actually become poor. Is God shrewd?

Jesus tells us a parable about a shrewd businessman - what does it say?
 
Feb 7, 2017
1,605
140
63
#5
Nobody:

  • "Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: but in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; by pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, by honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; as sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things." (2Cor 6.3-10).
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,921
13,607
113
#6
as poor, yet making many rich
i read a book about a brilliant man who owned nothing, but lived like royalty.
he spent his time looking at how to make other people's businesses prosper, and giving them the ideas and council for free.
in their gratitude for having become rich by his gifts of insight and advice, these people looked after all his needs.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#7
The spiritually wretched, poor, weak, blind, and naked; would have to be those who are remaining babes in Christ
That is incorrect. The above is a description of the UNSAVED. See Rev 3:17 KJB.

WRETCHED = still bound by the Law of sin and death

MISERABLE = without God, without Christ, without hope

POOR = devoid of the riches of Christ (all spiritual blessings) = GOLD

BLIND = devoid of the Holy Spirit = EYESALVE

NAKED = devoid of the robe of Christ's righteousness = WHITE RAIMENT
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,921
13,607
113
#8
you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.
did anyone else notice . .

5 descriptions:

  • wretched
  • pitiable
  • poor
  • blind
  • naked
He counsels to obtain from Him remedies for 3:
  • gold
  • garments
  • salve
nevermind being wretched and pitiable, and the shame of nakedness is hidden not removed
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#9
God rejects man's work.

If you make an altar of stone for Me, you shall not build it of cut stones,
for if you wield your tool on it, you will profane it.
(Exodus 20:25)

our hope must be set on Him, not on what we do. salvation is through belief, not through performing actions.
God only rejects man's work as something to achieve salvation. Got blesses us for our work that we do as a result of our salvation.

People are always saying that it is either law or grace. That is not so. When God gave us the commandments of the Lord, God explained that through obedience to them we achieve blessings.

If we put the importance of money to our life ahead of the importance of God and our worship of God, we are not doing the work that achieves blessings. It cancels other work we do for putting God first in our life is the first commandment. We are told that our work then leads to abundance in our life.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
10,531
113
78
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#10
God only rejects man's work as something to achieve salvation. Got blesses us for our work that we do as a result of our salvation.

People are always saying that it is either law or grace. That is not so. When God gave us the commandments of the Lord, God explained that through obedience to them we achieve blessings.

If we put the importance of money to our life ahead of the importance of God and our worship of God, we are not doing the work that achieves blessings. It cancels other work we do for putting God first in our life is the first commandment. We are told that our work then leads to abundance in our life.
Thank you Blik, you rescued this thread from silliness. Plus the blessed poor will always be providing for the really depraved poor and needy around them. They will never amass wealth to themselves. Like the Church of Smyrna. They were both poor and wealthy (Rev. 2:9).

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