Predestination or free will?

Preston, it would help me if you would give me book, chapter and verse for a reference to your statement. Sorry that I need a reference, I guess it is because I am not as well read as you.

Preston, if it is an action on your part to allow God to save you, then you are actually saving yourself by your actions ( works ). And limiting God's power ( Dan 4:16 ).

F...,
A weird opinion, I must say..........please show me scripture which supports that conclusion....?

I don't know what bible you using but, I highly recommend you find another one. You are being miss led...not unusual in today's world of Christianity. Don't feel bad.

F...,
Glad to...on which point?

Eph 2:1-5, I think these scriptures tell us the way a person is saved from the state of the natural man ( 1 Cor 2:14,) to the state of a spiritual man,( born again). most especially verse 5, Even when we were dead ( spiritually )in sin ( 1 Cor 2:14 ), hath quickened ( made alive spiritually ) us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved ). Verse 8 and 9, For by grace are ye saved through faith ( Christ's faith ), and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Preston, I respect your desire to hold on to the scriptures that you have been taught as to your eternal salvation. My understanding and belief is different than yours, and it took me many years of studying and the revelation of the Holy Spirit within me to settle on the belief that I have, I was 62 years old before the scriptures began to harmonize and not (seemingly) contradict. I believe that the prophets of old were inspired in their writings by God himself. I further believe that the scriptures contained in the King James bible are instruction letters mostly written to the churches ( God's children ) as instructions as to how God's children should live their lives while they live here on this earth. I am sorry about injecting so much information about myself, but thought it might help you to understand why I uphold certain scriptures to explain my belief.

One of them is your post #281.

F.....,

That doesn't support your stated conclusion or my question.

Want to try again?

Those scriptures tells us how we are to prepare ourselves...not a conclusion of...."saved"....unless we...."maintain until the end"......which is to be determined by G-d's judgment ....after earthly/physical death.

This forum is titled , BIBLE DISCUSSION FORUM. If you do not use book, chapter and verse when discussing the bible, you are not willing to discuss the scriptures, if you do not give me book, chapter and verse to back your statements up, I am bowing out and will find someone that is willing to have a balanced discussion of the scriptures. Good by!

F...,

That is NOT what The Bible refers/Infers as works.

We must repent, we must be baptized and then live a righteous life according to G-d's commandments and will....with full faith.

That is salvation by works. We must repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved (Acts 3:19; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 11:17,18; Romans 1:16 etc..). Water baptism (Acts 10:47) and keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments (1 John 2:3) FOLLOWS conversion/have been saved through faith.

Mailmandan, If your picture indicates your career , Me also, except I have been retired for many years.

I have 3 years, 10 months, 7 days, 14 hours, 7 minutes and 22 seconds to go until I retire, but who is counting?

I have 3 years, 10 months, 7 days, 14 hours, 7 minutes and 22 seconds to go until I retire, but who is counting?

Hey! Forest.... PTL!
Gal 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
In the above scripture, we can clearly see that faith is not counted as works.

Gal 3:2 "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
1 Jn 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Heb 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
Maranatha!

You do know that the faith worded in Gal 2:16 is Jesus's faith and not our faith, do you not? Jesus is the one that justified us, not ourselves. The NIV version has changed the word "OF" in this verse to "IN" to take away Christ's faith and make it man's faith. When we harvest apples, we have to pick the apple off of the apple tree, and unless we first have the tree, we have no apples. Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit ls love, joy, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, FAITH, meekness, temperance. How can we have faith without first having the Spirit? In chapter 3 of the letter to the Galatians church, consider verse 23, But before faith (Jesus ) came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith ( Jesus ) which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith ( Jesus ) but after faith ( Jesus ) is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. glfi, If you read the description of the natural man ( 1 Cor 2:14, the man we were before we were born of the Spirit ) it is very hard to believe that man, void of the Spirit can have spiritual faith before first having the Spirit of God dwelling within him. Can you explain it to me?

I agree with you on the faith of Jesus Christ. But, the faith of Jesus Christ is given to them that believe. We must first believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and Christ's faith is imputed to us.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You don't consider acts of obedience to be works?