YOKE OF BONDAGE

I think and interesting thing about the old Testament prophets is that they seem to talk most about Idol worship and the impression of the poor. We had talked to earlier about Mammon. we talked about how if one is serving Mammon one is not holding to God. I think that's basically Idolatry. serving Mammon of course is also likely going to involve oppression of the poor.
we do show our faith by our works
James 2: 1. My brothers, don't hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory with partiality. 2. For if a man with a gold ring, in fine clothing, comes into your synagogue, and a poor man in filthy clothing also comes in; 3. and you pay special attention to him who wears the fine clothing, and say, "Sit here in a good place;" and you tell the poor man, "Stand there," or "Sit by my footstool;" 4. haven't you shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? 5. Listen, my beloved brothers. Didn't God choose those who are poor in this world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the Kingdom which he promised to those who love him? 6. But you have dishonored the poor man. Don't the rich oppress you, and personally drag you before the courts? 7. Don't they blaspheme the honorable name by which you are called? 8. However, if you fulfill the royal law, according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. 9. But if you show partiality, you commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors. 10. For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not commit murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12. So speak, and so do, as men who are to be judged by a law of freedom. 13. For judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. 14. What good is it, my brothers, if a man says he has faith, but has no works? Can faith save him? 15. And if a brother or sister is naked and in lack of daily food, 16. and one of you tells them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled;" and yet you didn't give them the things the body needs, what good is it? 17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself. 18. Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
what do you mean by the holy Sabbath is a work of God? what do you mean by walking in the Sabbath? are these phrases from the scriptures? God's instructions are to walk by the spirit.
Galatians 5: 25. If we live by the Spirit, let's also walk by the Spirit.

I think it's interesting to note that law here Galatians 5: 18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
does not have a definite article with it. so I believe a possible translation is also law. so a reasonable translation would be if we are led by the spirit we are not under rules.
I'm not sure why you ask if Jesus intended for us to choose him. I think the answer would clearly be yes.

actually I think we are Justified apart from laws about loving your neighbor. we are Justified freely. not on the basis of works that we have done. on the basis of the work that Christ did. once having been Justified, we pursue good works. not in order to be justified, but because we already are.


the thing that Abraham believed is that he would have a child, a son, through Sarah, and that by that he, Abraham, would become the father of many nations. I agree that Romans chapter 4 doesn't make void any scriptures. yes, no doubt Christ manifests himself to people who are righteous. but the New Covenant comes into effect with Jesus' blood.


do you believe that Abraham was born again?


Abraham was blessed because of his obedience. He was declared righteous because of his faith, because he believe God's promise about having a son.


looks like this is kind of a crucial issue here for us. What is it that Abraham believed for which he was declared righteous?


Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."


I think this is the passage Paul is referring to
After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward." 2 Abram said, "Lord GOD, what will you give me, seeing I go childless, and he who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 Abram said, "Look, to me you have given no offspring: and, look, one born in my house is my heir." 4 Look, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir, but he who will come forth out of your own body will be your heir." 5 He brought him outside, and said, "Look now toward the sky, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And Abram believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
what is it that Abraham believes God for, what is Abraham believing? it is that God will give him a son, and that he will be the father of a great multitude. And not end up childless. that's what Abraham believed.

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I think satan has deceived "many" through the very cleaver twisting of Paul's words that Abel's honor and obedience towards God means nothing, that Noah's obedience and honor towards God means nothing, that Abraham's honor and obedience means nothing, that Caleb's honor and obedience means nothing, that Zechariahs honor and obedience to God means nothing. It certainly convinced Eve that honor and obedience to God means nothing,

Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

When a man rejects all the religious voices and just studies the Word, it becomes clear that Paul is speaking about the "Works of the Law" instituted by the Word which became Flesh, for the atonement of sins until the Seed should come. satan has cleverly convinced many that Paul isn't speaking about the "atonement Laws" the Jews were still pushing on the Gentiles and Galatians. Laws that Abraham didn't have as Paul points out. Many have been convinced that Paul is speaking about "ALL" of God's instructions, not just the Laws that were specifically for the justification of sins.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham was given instructions, and He followed them, Eve was given instructions and rejected them. For this reason God blessed Abraham and cursed Eve. It's in your Bible.

If a man understands that Paul is speaking about the "Law of Works" that was "ADDED" and to be in place until the Christ came, everything falls in perfect place.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (As Abraham was)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (Not the sacrificial "Works of the Levitical Priesthood) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (A command from God)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? (Which Laws, taking a goat to a Levite Priest? NO!!!)

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Ex. 20, Lev. 19.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
"Which"

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I could go on and on. Every Verse in the Bible teaches this truth. But if men have been deceived about one point, what does the scriptures say?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

The entire Bible is changed by this one doctrinal issue. Is Paul referring to God's "good, Just, Holy and Spiritual Laws in Romans 3? Or is he talking about the justification Laws given by Moses through the Levitical Priesthood "Until the Seed Should come? A Priesthood that Jesus changed and became.

Laws Abraham most certainly didn't have as Levi wasn't even born yet. Laws the Jews were still pushing because they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, because they didn't "Glorify God", as did Abraham, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Everything fits together when a man accepts this Biblical truth.

This is the reason there is so much confusion in modern day Babylon. This is why Jesus says to "Come out of her".

This is the crux of our disagreement, and the reason why we will probably never see eye to eye.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I think satan has deceived "many" through the very cleaver twisting of Paul's words that Abel's honor and obedience towards God means nothing, that Noah's obedience and honor towards God means nothing, that Abraham's honor and obedience means nothing, that Caleb's honor and obedience means nothing, that Zechariahs honor and obedience to God means nothing. It certainly convinced Eve that honor and obedience to God means nothing,

Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

When a man rejects all the religious voices and just studies the Word, it becomes clear that Paul is speaking about the "Works of the Law" instituted by the Word which became Flesh, for the atonement of sins until the Seed should come. satan has cleverly convinced many that Paul isn't speaking about the "atonement Laws" the Jews were still pushing on the Gentiles and Galatians. Laws that Abraham didn't have as Paul points out. Many have been convinced that Paul is speaking about "ALL" of God's instructions, not just the Laws that were specifically for the justification of sins.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham was given instructions, and He followed them, Eve was given instructions and rejected them. For this reason God blessed Abraham and cursed Eve. It's in your Bible.

If a man understands that Paul is speaking about the "Law of Works" that was "ADDED" and to be in place until the Christ came, everything falls in perfect place.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (As Abraham was)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (Not the sacrificial "Works of the Levitical Priesthood) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (A command from God)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? (Which Laws, taking a goat to a Levite Priest? NO!!!)

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Ex. 20, Lev. 19.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
"Which"

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I could go on and on. Every Verse in the Bible teaches this truth. But if men have been deceived about one point, what does the scriptures say?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

The entire Bible is changed by this one doctrinal issue. Is Paul referring to God's "good, Just, Holy and Spiritual Laws in Romans 3? Or is he talking about the justification Laws given by Moses through the Levitical Priesthood "Until the Seed Should come? A Priesthood that Jesus changed and became.

Laws Abraham most certainly didn't have as Levi wasn't even born yet. Laws the Jews were still pushing because they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, because they didn't "Glorify God", as did Abraham, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Everything fits together when a man accepts this Biblical truth.

This is the reason there is so much confusion in modern day Babylon. This is why Jesus says to "Come out of her".

This is the crux of our disagreement, and the reason why we will probably never see eye to eye.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I think satan has deceived "many" through the very cleaver twisting of Paul's words that Abel's honor and obedience towards God means nothing, that Noah's obedience and honor towards God means nothing, that Abraham's honor and obedience means nothing, that Caleb's honor and obedience means nothing, that Zechariahs honor and obedience to God means nothing. It certainly convinced Eve that honor and obedience to God means nothing,

Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

When a man rejects all the religious voices and just studies the Word, it becomes clear that Paul is speaking about the "Works of the Law" instituted by the Word which became Flesh, for the atonement of sins until the Seed should come. satan has cleverly convinced many that Paul isn't speaking about the "atonement Laws" the Jews were still pushing on the Gentiles and Galatians. Laws that Abraham didn't have as Paul points out. Many have been convinced that Paul is speaking about "ALL" of God's instructions, not just the Laws that were specifically for the justification of sins.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham was given instructions, and He followed them, Eve was given instructions and rejected them. For this reason God blessed Abraham and cursed Eve. It's in your Bible.

If a man understands that Paul is speaking about the "Law of Works" that was "ADDED" and to be in place until the Christ came, everything falls in perfect place.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (As Abraham was)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (Not the sacrificial "Works of the Levitical Priesthood) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (A command from God)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? (Which Laws, taking a goat to a Levite Priest? NO!!!)

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Ex. 20, Lev. 19.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
"Which"

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I could go on and on. Every Verse in the Bible teaches this truth. But if men have been deceived about one point, what does the scriptures say?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

The entire Bible is changed by this one doctrinal issue. Is Paul referring to God's "good, Just, Holy and Spiritual Laws in Romans 3? Or is he talking about the justification Laws given by Moses through the Levitical Priesthood "Until the Seed Should come? A Priesthood that Jesus changed and became.

Laws Abraham most certainly didn't have as Levi wasn't even born yet. Laws the Jews were still pushing because they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, because they didn't "Glorify God", as did Abraham, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Everything fits together when a man accepts this Biblical truth.

This is the reason there is so much confusion in modern day Babylon. This is why Jesus says to "Come out of her".

This is the crux of our disagreement, and the reason why we will probably never see eye to eye.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

then you err.


man is justified by the 'law of faith' - so that He is just and the one who justifies the one who has faith in Jesus.
the 'law of faith' is exactly this: He justifies the one who has faith in Him. if: believe, then: He justifies. that's His law. grace, mercy, peace, true rest.

and what is justification?


it is the dead brought to life - even He:


by this law of faith the dead are raised to life:


because it is God who justifies, and those He justifies are brothers ans sisters of The Firstborn:


born into what? into life, from death. resurrected unto eternal life. how?


through His own death and resurrection: which we enter into, according to 'the law of faith' - by believing on Him.




oh but you think the law of faith is good works of the Law.
well, i suggest reading more than the one verse of chapter 2 of Romans that you are acquainted with.. and i suggest reading it in some version other than the SSV.

God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Mark 1: 14. Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the Good News of the Kingdom of God, 15. and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand! Repent, and believe in the Good News."

the righteous Deeds of Old Testament people who were righteous relative to their generation, their fellows, is indeed nothing when it comes to justification, being right in God's eyes. because everyone has sinned. and the result of sin, any sin, is death.

that is not a twisting of Paul's words. obedience towards God does mean something. believe the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15: 1. Now I declare to you, brothers, the Gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2. by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4. that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.



this is a description of the Old Testament people who were righteous relative to their generation

Romans 3: 10. As it is written, "There is no one righteous; no, not one. 11. There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. 12. They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one." 13. "Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit." "The poison of vipers is under their lips;" 14. "whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15. "Their feet are swift to shed blood. 16. Destruction and misery are in their ways. 17. The way of peace, they haven't known." 18. "There is no fear of God before their eyes." and that's also me and you. in the absolute sense, in what God requires. because the outcome of sin, any sin, is death.
Matthew 11: 11. Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

I disagree that in Romans chapter 4 The Works of the law are referring to just certain specific things in the law of Moses. I think it is talking about Good Works of any kind. no, not all of God's instructions, because that would include rejecting believing in him whom he has sent. But all of the laws given in the law of Moses. The you shall and you shall nots commonly associated with the old Covenant.

you bring up an excellent point about James asking the question that wasn't Abraham Justified by works when he offered Isaac? the answer of course is no. Abraham was justified many years earlier, before Isaac was even born. we see that clearly in Romans, Galatians, and in the Genesis account.

so how do we reconcile them? the key is the context of what James is talking about James 2: 18. Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. there it is, show me. James is talking about show me. Abraham was justified earlier, but the fruit of that justification was visible when he offered Isaac.

"I disagree that in Romans chapter 4 The Works of the law are referring to just certain specific things in the law of Moses. I think it is talking about Good Works of any kind. no, not all of God's instructions, because that would include rejecting believing in him whom he has sent. But all of the laws given in the law of Moses. The you shall and you shall nots commonly associated with the old Covenant."

Of course you don't believe Paul is speaking about the Priesthood "Works of the Law" given by Moses for the remission of sins until the Seed should come. Doing so changes the dynamic of the entire New Testament.

So to preserve the religious traditions of the land, God's instructions must be considered no different than man's instructions.

How can a man glorify God as God, if you equate "man's good works" with God's Works. Isn't this what the religious men did in Paul's time?

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Can you show me in the Law and Prophets where God commanded to reject believing on those who He sent?

And can you also show me where the promise of the New Covenant mentioned eliminating or altering the "shalls and Shall nots"?

Mark 1: 14. Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the Good News of the Kingdom of God, 15. and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand! Repent, and believe in the Good News."

the righteous Deeds of Old Testament people who were righteous relative to their generation, their fellows, is indeed nothing when it comes to justification, being right in God's eyes. because everyone has sinned. and the result of sin, any sin, is death.

that is not a twisting of Paul's words. obedience towards God does mean something. believe the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15: 1. Now I declare to you, brothers, the Gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2. by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4. that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.



this is a description of the Old Testament people who were righteous relative to their generation

Romans 3: 10. As it is written, "There is no one righteous; no, not one. 11. There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. 12. They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one." 13. "Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit." "The poison of vipers is under their lips;" 14. "whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15. "Their feet are swift to shed blood. 16. Destruction and misery are in their ways. 17. The way of peace, they haven't known." 18. "There is no fear of God before their eyes." and that's also me and you. in the absolute sense, in what God requires. because the outcome of sin, any sin, is death.
Matthew 11: 11. Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

I disagree that in Romans chapter 4 The Works of the law are referring to just certain specific things in the law of Moses. I think it is talking about Good Works of any kind. no, not all of God's instructions, because that would include rejecting believing in him whom he has sent. But all of the laws given in the law of Moses. The you shall and you shall nots commonly associated with the old Covenant.

you bring up an excellent point about James asking the question that wasn't Abraham Justified by works when he offered Isaac? the answer of course is no. Abraham was justified many years earlier, before Isaac was even born. we see that clearly in Romans, Galatians, and in the Genesis account.

so how do we reconcile them? the key is the context of what James is talking about James 2: 18. Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. there it is, show me. James is talking about show me. Abraham was justified earlier, but the fruit of that justification was visible when he offered Isaac.

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I think satan has deceived "many" through the very cleaver twisting of Paul's words that Abel's honor and obedience towards God means nothing, that Noah's obedience and honor towards God means nothing, that Abraham's honor and obedience means nothing, that Caleb's honor and obedience means nothing, that Zechariahs honor and obedience to God means nothing. It certainly convinced Eve that honor and obedience to God means nothing,

Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

When a man rejects all the religious voices and just studies the Word, it becomes clear that Paul is speaking about the "Works of the Law" instituted by the Word which became Flesh, for the atonement of sins until the Seed should come. satan has cleverly convinced many that Paul isn't speaking about the "atonement Laws" the Jews were still pushing on the Gentiles and Galatians. Laws that Abraham didn't have as Paul points out. Many have been convinced that Paul is speaking about "ALL" of God's instructions, not just the Laws that were specifically for the justification of sins.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham was given instructions, and He followed them, Eve was given instructions and rejected them. For this reason God blessed Abraham and cursed Eve. It's in your Bible.

If a man understands that Paul is speaking about the "Law of Works" that was "ADDED" and to be in place until the Christ came, everything falls in perfect place.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (As Abraham was)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (Not the sacrificial "Works of the Levitical Priesthood) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (A command from God)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? (Which Laws, taking a goat to a Levite Priest? NO!!!)

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Ex. 20, Lev. 19.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
"Which"

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I could go on and on. Every Verse in the Bible teaches this truth. But if men have been deceived about one point, what does the scriptures say?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

The entire Bible is changed by this one doctrinal issue. Is Paul referring to God's "good, Just, Holy and Spiritual Laws in Romans 3? Or is he talking about the justification Laws given by Moses through the Levitical Priesthood "Until the Seed Should come? A Priesthood that Jesus changed and became.

Laws Abraham most certainly didn't have as Levi wasn't even born yet. Laws the Jews were still pushing because they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, because they didn't "Glorify God", as did Abraham, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Everything fits together when a man accepts this Biblical truth.

This is the reason there is so much confusion in modern day Babylon. This is why Jesus says to "Come out of her".

This is the crux of our disagreement, and the reason why we will probably never see eye to eye.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Your implication that Paul is speaking about "works of the Law" being "honor and respect to God" that is commanded, or "obedience to God" that is commanded is a deception.

God has shown mercy on folks since the beginning and has given instruction on who receives His Mercy in the Examples He had written for our admonition.

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I think satan has deceived "many" through the very cleaver twisting of Paul's words that Abel's honor and obedience towards God means nothing, that Noah's obedience and honor towards God means nothing, that Abraham's honor and obedience means nothing, that Caleb's honor and obedience means nothing, that Zechariahs honor and obedience to God means nothing. It certainly convinced Eve that honor and obedience to God means nothing,

Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

When a man rejects all the religious voices and just studies the Word, it becomes clear that Paul is speaking about the "Works of the Law" instituted by the Word which became Flesh, for the atonement of sins until the Seed should come. satan has cleverly convinced many that Paul isn't speaking about the "atonement Laws" the Jews were still pushing on the Gentiles and Galatians. Laws that Abraham didn't have as Paul points out. Many have been convinced that Paul is speaking about "ALL" of God's instructions, not just the Laws that were specifically for the justification of sins.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham was given instructions, and He followed them, Eve was given instructions and rejected them. For this reason God blessed Abraham and cursed Eve. It's in your Bible.

If a man understands that Paul is speaking about the "Law of Works" that was "ADDED" and to be in place until the Christ came, everything falls in perfect place.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (As Abraham was)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (Not the sacrificial "Works of the Levitical Priesthood) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (A command from God)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? (Which Laws, taking a goat to a Levite Priest? NO!!!)

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Ex. 20, Lev. 19.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
"Which"

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I could go on and on. Every Verse in the Bible teaches this truth. But if men have been deceived about one point, what does the scriptures say?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

The entire Bible is changed by this one doctrinal issue. Is Paul referring to God's "good, Just, Holy and Spiritual Laws in Romans 3? Or is he talking about the justification Laws given by Moses through the Levitical Priesthood "Until the Seed Should come? A Priesthood that Jesus changed and became.

Laws Abraham most certainly didn't have as Levi wasn't even born yet. Laws the Jews were still pushing because they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, because they didn't "Glorify God", as did Abraham, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Everything fits together when a man accepts this Biblical truth.

This is the reason there is so much confusion in modern day Babylon. This is why Jesus says to "Come out of her".

This is the crux of our disagreement, and the reason why we will probably never see eye to eye.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

"I disagree that in Romans chapter 4 The Works of the law are referring to just certain specific things in the law of Moses. I think it is talking about Good Works of any kind. no, not all of God's instructions, because that would include rejecting believing in him whom he has sent. But all of the laws given in the law of Moses. The you shall and you shall nots commonly associated with the old Covenant."

Of course you don't believe Paul is speaking about the Priesthood "Works of the Law" given by Moses for the remission of sins until the Seed should come. Doing so changes the dynamic of the entire New Testament.

So to preserve the religious traditions of the land, God's instructions must be considered no different than man's instructions.

How can a man glorify God as God, if you equate "man's good works" with God's Works. Isn't this what the religious men did in Paul's time?

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Can you show me in the Law and Prophets where God commanded to reject believing on those who He sent?

And can you also show me where the promise of the New Covenant mentioned eliminating or altering the "shalls and Shall nots"?

"you bring up an excellent point about James asking the question that wasn't Abraham Justified by works when he offered Isaac? the answer of course is no. Abraham was justified many years earlier, before Isaac was even born. we see that clearly in Romans, Galatians, and in the Genesis account."



Yes, he was justified at the first time God gave him instruction.

1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

So isn't Abram doing as God instructed him? What if Abram had chosen the same path as Eve? Would he still be blessed? Would he still be justified in your religion?

Could he have had faith in God, and decided God's instructions were a burden to him so he didn't honor God by following them?

Isn't the Word which became Flesh telling Abram the same thing He told me.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

You say the answer is "NO". But the Scriptures say Abram obeyed the instruction and it was for this reason he was given a son to begin with.

View attachment 185511




amen


by grace i have been saved, not of works, that every mouth be shut and no man can boast
the Perfect Way has chosen me; i choose a Perfect Way.

I disagree that Abraham was justified multiple times. In Romans chapter 4 we read that the specific experience that Abraham had where God told him that he would be the father of many nations, told him that he would have a son, that's when Abraham believed, and that's when it was counted as righteousness for him. once having been counted as righteous, he didn't have to be counted again and again... Today he's righteous, the next day he's not counted righteous, the next day he's counted righteous again, and so on.

we do take up our cross everyday, and follow Jesus everyday. Not in order to get Justified, but because we are Justified, counted righteous as Abraham was. that is, if we accept the gospel, believing that Jesus died for our sins and rose again.

this is a classic straw man argument here "You say the answer is "NO"." no I say the answer is yes, and I showed how it all fits together.

many people confuse the commandments of Jesus with things like the Ten Commandments. Jesus definitely did say if you love me keep my Commandments.

I do not believe that Jesus, the word which became flesh, is the same as yhwh in every respect.

that's because of verses like this one
Psalm 110: 1. the Lord says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet."
the Lord who is speaking here is yhwh. he is speaking to the Son, who would take on flesh and be named Jesus.

Jesus isn't talking to himself in the verse, nor is he asking himself to sit at his own right hand.

so the commandments of Jesus are not the same as the Commandments of yhwh.

these are some of the Commandments of yhwh
Exodus 20: 1. And the Lord spoke all these words: 2. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.

"so the commandments of Jesus are not the same as the Commandments of yhwh."

Psalm 110: 1. the Lord says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet."
the Lord who is speaking here is yhwh. he is speaking to the Son, who would take on flesh and be named Jesus.

I know you don't believe "ALL" things were created by Him. Nor do you believe "all things" that are written in the Law and Prophets. You have made that abundantly clear in your posts. That would make the 10 Commandments which were "made" His, the Christ's, Commandments. That changes everything. So you can't believe "ALL" that is written about Him. And you can't believe "ALL" things were created by Him.



John 7:
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

I just don't believe that Jesus didn't get His Direction from His Father, both as the Word, and as a man. It just doesn't line up with the scriptures.



Are you saying the Word which became Flesh didn't sit at God's Right Hand before He became Flesh? Where was He then?

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

He wasn't sitting at the Right Hand of God before He became Flesh? Where was he?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

You preach He wasn't sitting at the Right Hand of God before He became Flesh? So where will He ascend if it isn't to the Right Hand of His father where He was before?

Col. 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

In your religion, was Abraham part of Christ's Church?

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Why was he glad Dan? Could it be because Jesus, as the Word, gave him the "Good News of the Gospel"?

John 14:
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Do you believe the Father gave Him commandments on what to create? What to make Holy and Clean? Or did Jesus, as the Word, create these things apart from His Father?

The whole set of examples that were written for our admonition, do you believe the "Son" followed the Commandments of His Father in preparing them?

What God led them out of Egypt? What was the Rock they all drank from? Are you saying the Word which became Flesh didn't show Noah how to create the Ark? Are you saying the Word which became Flesh didn't create the Covenant with Israel or Promise a New Covenant where He will Write HIS Laws, that He created, on our hearts? Are you preaching it wasn't the Word which became Flesh that provided a sacrifice in the place of Abraham's Son?

And by whose direction did the Word create "ALL" Things?

John 7:
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

This discussion has been great Dan. I finally get to the crux of our disagreements and the truth about your religion. I don't expect anything to change, but the exercise was great and a huge Faith builder for me.

I hope others reading along can see the point of the post and then tie it to all the warnings the Word which became Flesh gave to us, both as the Word, and as the Man Jesus..

more oneness lies.

you see, the mount of transfiguration experience blows all this out of the water. everything you said here.

when God the Father said of the Son , " hear Him ". while Moses ( the Law ) and Elijah ( the prophets ) were their. this elevtates and seperates Christ's words in red above the O.T.