YOKE OF BONDAGE
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I don't believe you can separate Faith in God from Honor for God, Love for God, Respect towards God, and obedience to God. If the examples in the Bible are to be considered, then these things define the faith of Abraham.
God knows, as do all good fathers, that children make mistakes. But there is a distinct difference between how Eve showed her mindset towards God and how Abraham showed his mindset towards God. This "difference" is evident in all the "Examples of Faith" in the examples God had written for our admonition show.
As it is written:
23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:
24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, (Like Abraham) him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
Even though Jesus said these "Words" last forever, most religious people really don't believe them like Caleb did.
I don't believe in your definition of Faith, and it seems neither did the Law and Prophets.
This is one of the foundational issues which define our disagreement, in my view.
yes, I think so too. and in fact see how those who were given the Law and baptized I to it also fell by it, on the basis of works, in which they boasted, and relied:
Romans 2:17-24
Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
but the righteous fall 7 times to rise again, because their hope is in God rather than in their flesh, their doing, and their proceeding.
Romans 2:17-24
Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
but the righteous fall 7 times to rise again, because their hope is in God rather than in their flesh, their doing, and their proceeding.
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how can a person say 'honour God' and add works to grace?
isn't that doubting and dishonouring the power of His sacrifice?
and someone will say that by maintaining this hope, keeping holy this rest that comes from faith in Him, is to preach disobedience. isn't such talk vanity, seeking cause to judge and condemn, instead of seeking Him and His righteousness?
but because of how we were bought, we ought to look to please Him with all our steps, because we have been purchased and He shall keep us. we do uphold the Law, even without bearing the threat of it, but in fact because the threat is not over us, so that we can do so happily and thankfully, knowing that He is the one doing these things in us
isn't that doubting and dishonouring the power of His sacrifice?
and someone will say that by maintaining this hope, keeping holy this rest that comes from faith in Him, is to preach disobedience. isn't such talk vanity, seeking cause to judge and condemn, instead of seeking Him and His righteousness?
but because of how we were bought, we ought to look to please Him with all our steps, because we have been purchased and He shall keep us. we do uphold the Law, even without bearing the threat of it, but in fact because the threat is not over us, so that we can do so happily and thankfully, knowing that He is the one doing these things in us
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This is perfect Post.
There was a religion, which claimed it's members are children of God, they claim to follow the laws of this God, they claimed to be representatives of the Almighty God of the Bible. They claimed "They" were the way, and that "they" were "A Light to them in darkness".
Yet they rejected the God they claimed to represent. They didn't glorify God as Abraham, Caleb, Jeremiah, and Zechariahs did. They created images of God in the likeness of man, they served this creation, more than the God they claimed to serve, they turned the "Truth of God" into a lie.
Jesus exposed this truth to them and they rejected His Words. Paul is also exposing their "religion" to them, and was rejected as well.
Even with all the examples of what happens to folks who treat God this way, they still did it.
As Paul told us.
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Paul is reminding the Gentiles not to do what the Mainstream Religions of that time did.
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Many preach they fell "BECAUSE" they followed God's instructions. This teaching is false, just as the false teaching of the Mainstream Preachers of Paul's time taught a man couldn't walk in fellowship of God on His Holy Sabbath and pick a blackberry or ear of corn to munch on.
Zechariahs didn't "Fall" by it. He, like Abraham, was blessed for honoring God, not cursed for Honoring God as your preaching implies. The implication that the Pharisees fell because they were trying to earn salvation by following God's Laws is in direct opposition of what Jesus, the God you claim to believe, said.
They relied on their own "doctrines created from the Commandments of men", not God. They relied on their own religious beliefs, rather than the Word's of the Word which became Flesh.
This is why Zechariahs knew Jesus when he came, and the Pharisees, including Saul, did not.
AS Paul says:
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Not the Jews version of the sacrificial, ceremonial "Works of the Law" of the Priesthood the Jews were still pushing. But the Spiritual instruction given in the Law and Prophets so those interested can "Prove" what is that perfect, acceptable "will of God".
1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
There was a religion, which claimed it's members are children of God, they claim to follow the laws of this God, they claimed to be representatives of the Almighty God of the Bible. They claimed "They" were the way, and that "they" were "A Light to them in darkness".
Yet they rejected the God they claimed to represent. They didn't glorify God as Abraham, Caleb, Jeremiah, and Zechariahs did. They created images of God in the likeness of man, they served this creation, more than the God they claimed to serve, they turned the "Truth of God" into a lie.
Jesus exposed this truth to them and they rejected His Words. Paul is also exposing their "religion" to them, and was rejected as well.
Even with all the examples of what happens to folks who treat God this way, they still did it.
As Paul told us.
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Paul is reminding the Gentiles not to do what the Mainstream Religions of that time did.
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Many preach they fell "BECAUSE" they followed God's instructions. This teaching is false, just as the false teaching of the Mainstream Preachers of Paul's time taught a man couldn't walk in fellowship of God on His Holy Sabbath and pick a blackberry or ear of corn to munch on.
Zechariahs didn't "Fall" by it. He, like Abraham, was blessed for honoring God, not cursed for Honoring God as your preaching implies. The implication that the Pharisees fell because they were trying to earn salvation by following God's Laws is in direct opposition of what Jesus, the God you claim to believe, said.
They relied on their own "doctrines created from the Commandments of men", not God. They relied on their own religious beliefs, rather than the Word's of the Word which became Flesh.
This is why Zechariahs knew Jesus when he came, and the Pharisees, including Saul, did not.
AS Paul says:
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Not the Jews version of the sacrificial, ceremonial "Works of the Law" of the Priesthood the Jews were still pushing. But the Spiritual instruction given in the Law and Prophets so those interested can "Prove" what is that perfect, acceptable "will of God".
1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Romans 2:17-20 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
you will notice that the word is "law" not "traditions and commandments of men"
quit rewriting the scripture.
you will notice that the word is "law" not "traditions and commandments of men"
quit rewriting the scripture.
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how can a person say 'honour God' and add works to grace?
isn't that doubting and dishonouring the power of His sacrifice?
and someone will say that by maintaining this hope, keeping holy this rest that comes from faith in Him, is to preach disobedience. isn't such talk vanity, seeking cause to judge and condemn, instead of seeking Him and His righteousness?
but because of how we were bought, we ought to look to please Him with all our steps, because we have been purchased and He shall keep us. we do uphold the Law, even without bearing the threat of it, but in fact because the threat is not over us, so that we can do so happily and thankfully, knowing that He is the one doing these things in us
isn't that doubting and dishonouring the power of His sacrifice?
and someone will say that by maintaining this hope, keeping holy this rest that comes from faith in Him, is to preach disobedience. isn't such talk vanity, seeking cause to judge and condemn, instead of seeking Him and His righteousness?
but because of how we were bought, we ought to look to please Him with all our steps, because we have been purchased and He shall keep us. we do uphold the Law, even without bearing the threat of it, but in fact because the threat is not over us, so that we can do so happily and thankfully, knowing that He is the one doing these things in us
But preaching that the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time were following God's Commandments, and that is why God withheld His Grace from them, that is a lie, and is dishonoring God.
I don't believe the scriptures as a whole support the preaching that Jesus does everything for me, and that I have no choice, or am in anyway a partaker in my own Salvation.
Not because some preacher I listen to let's me copy and paste his words, but because of the teaching of the Word which became Flesh.
Phil. 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Jesus didn't repent for us, He didn't "Turn to God for us", He didn't wipe my past sins out so I could create images of Him in the likeness of man, or create our own religious High Days while rejecting the "Feasts of the Lord" that Jesus, as the Word created, or make void volumes of scriptures which teach in opposition to popular religious traditions.
Jesus said:
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
The preaching that Jesus denies myself for me, that Jesus picks up my cross for me, the He follows Himself for me, is a popular doctrine, and I'm sure fills the collection plates. But is not based on the Holy Teachings of the Bible.
let's be realistic for just one tiny second.
what fills the collection plates is the ((very much mainstream)) teaching of works based salvation. give money or else you are not obeying God because we are still under Law. give money or else you are not really saved. we can tell who is really righteous because they write checks.
that lie - which is in fact the mainstream - that lie that having begun by the Spirit you are perfected by the flesh, that is the lie that makes merchandise of salvation.
salvation is free: the just shall live by faith
what fills the collection plates is the ((very much mainstream)) teaching of works based salvation. give money or else you are not obeying God because we are still under Law. give money or else you are not really saved. we can tell who is really righteous because they write checks.
that lie - which is in fact the mainstream - that lie that having begun by the Spirit you are perfected by the flesh, that is the lie that makes merchandise of salvation.
salvation is free: the just shall live by faith
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Yes, the Just shall live by Faith. But what is Faith?
You have determined that giving money to Mainstream Christian franchises isn't Faith. I agree.
Is creating or acknowledging images of God in the Likeness of man exhibiting Faith in the True God?
Is rejecting God's instructions and creating your own, exhibiting Faith in the true God?
Is stealing exhibiting Faith in the True God?
Is refusing to Glorify God exhibiting true faith?
Is creating or observing religious High Days and man made "Feasts unto the Lord" exhibiting Faith in the True God?
Is Transgressing God's Commandments by religious traditions of man exhibiting Faith in the True God?
How about preaching the falsehood and out and out lie that the Pharisees were trying to earn Salvation by following God's Commandments. Is preaching falsehoods about God's Word exhibiting Faith in the True God?
So let's be realistic here for one minute.
Every person on the planet has works. Even you Post.
And the Bible says we are all judged by our works.
So I don't believe in the (very much Mainstream) religious doctrine that we need do nothing, change nothing, that Jesus does it all for us because "Salvation is free".
Salvation is God's Mercy. It is a gift God has offered to some and withheld from others. This is Biblical fact.
It isn't free because a man was tortured then murdered to provide it for you. You didn't do anything to provide this gift, but someone else did.
It is a free gift in as much as you did nothing to create it, provide it, administer it. Nothing you do, can do, or ever have done contributed to the creation of this Gift.
But God from the very beginning, has placed conditions on those who can Claim this gift. These conditions are His, not religious mans.
Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Matt. 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
So as I said, the preaching that you don't have to change, that Jesus changed for you, is popular in the religious franchises of the land, but the Word which became Flesh exposes this teaching as false as He exposed the teaching of the Mainstream Preachers of His time.
"Many" on this forum spend great amounts of time ridiculing anyone who would suggest following the Bibles teaching that Claiming this Gift of Salvation requires some action on my part.
They boast of their religion and call the conditions the Christ placed on Claiming His gift, "works based salvation" and they preach against following the instructions of God as Jesus taught for us to do. Calling those who do "Legalists, Pharisees and a number of insults. And when confronted with scriptures that reveal their error, they simply post another scripture they claim makes it void, or deflect, etc. (What about Titzit?) It's an age old game religious man has been playing with God since the beginning. "Am I my Brothers keeper"?
WE have many examples of voices teaching against following the instructions God gives us, written for our admonition. The serpent and Eve is one such example.
Gen. 3:
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (You can claim the free gift)
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (Reject God's instructions) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
We have examples of folks who Claimed this "free gift" apart from following the conditions the Word which became Flesh placed on it. (denying our self, repenting, taking up our cross, etc.)
Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
We have all these examples of men who claimed the Word as their God, yet refused to follow His instruction, and we have all these examples of Faith of men who trusted God enough to follow His instructions even at the point of death, of themselves, and of their own children.
Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight,(other voices) and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run (Not let Jesus run for us) with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;(For our instruction and our Salvation) who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
You have determined that giving money to Mainstream Christian franchises isn't Faith. I agree.
Is creating or acknowledging images of God in the Likeness of man exhibiting Faith in the True God?
Is rejecting God's instructions and creating your own, exhibiting Faith in the true God?
Is stealing exhibiting Faith in the True God?
Is refusing to Glorify God exhibiting true faith?
Is creating or observing religious High Days and man made "Feasts unto the Lord" exhibiting Faith in the True God?
Is Transgressing God's Commandments by religious traditions of man exhibiting Faith in the True God?
How about preaching the falsehood and out and out lie that the Pharisees were trying to earn Salvation by following God's Commandments. Is preaching falsehoods about God's Word exhibiting Faith in the True God?
So let's be realistic here for one minute.
Every person on the planet has works. Even you Post.
And the Bible says we are all judged by our works.
So I don't believe in the (very much Mainstream) religious doctrine that we need do nothing, change nothing, that Jesus does it all for us because "Salvation is free".
Salvation is God's Mercy. It is a gift God has offered to some and withheld from others. This is Biblical fact.
It isn't free because a man was tortured then murdered to provide it for you. You didn't do anything to provide this gift, but someone else did.
It is a free gift in as much as you did nothing to create it, provide it, administer it. Nothing you do, can do, or ever have done contributed to the creation of this Gift.
But God from the very beginning, has placed conditions on those who can Claim this gift. These conditions are His, not religious mans.
Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Matt. 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
So as I said, the preaching that you don't have to change, that Jesus changed for you, is popular in the religious franchises of the land, but the Word which became Flesh exposes this teaching as false as He exposed the teaching of the Mainstream Preachers of His time.
"Many" on this forum spend great amounts of time ridiculing anyone who would suggest following the Bibles teaching that Claiming this Gift of Salvation requires some action on my part.
They boast of their religion and call the conditions the Christ placed on Claiming His gift, "works based salvation" and they preach against following the instructions of God as Jesus taught for us to do. Calling those who do "Legalists, Pharisees and a number of insults. And when confronted with scriptures that reveal their error, they simply post another scripture they claim makes it void, or deflect, etc. (What about Titzit?) It's an age old game religious man has been playing with God since the beginning. "Am I my Brothers keeper"?
WE have many examples of voices teaching against following the instructions God gives us, written for our admonition. The serpent and Eve is one such example.
Gen. 3:
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (You can claim the free gift)
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (Reject God's instructions) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
We have examples of folks who Claimed this "free gift" apart from following the conditions the Word which became Flesh placed on it. (denying our self, repenting, taking up our cross, etc.)
Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
We have all these examples of men who claimed the Word as their God, yet refused to follow His instruction, and we have all these examples of Faith of men who trusted God enough to follow His instructions even at the point of death, of themselves, and of their own children.
Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight,(other voices) and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run (Not let Jesus run for us) with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;(For our instruction and our Salvation) who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
True, Abraham was not justified by the atonement laws added 430 years later that the Jews were still pushing their version of.. But you can't deny that Abraham honored God with respect and honor and obedience. This truth is very hard for "many" who come in Christ's name to accept given they all preach unconditional salvation. Your lack of understanding of this one scripture doesn't make void the rest of the Bible.
Gen. 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
Gen. 12:So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him.
Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Num. 14:24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
WE should have the Faith of Abraham. I don't believe we are Holy enough to create our own definition of "faith".
Gen. 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
Gen. 12:So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him.
Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Num. 14:24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
WE should have the Faith of Abraham. I don't believe we are Holy enough to create our own definition of "faith".
that may be the case but i am hesitant to go beyond what's written. what is recorded ought to be enough to gleen what He means in most cases, and what we have is that Abel brought a sacrifice containing blood but Cain brought bloodless offerings from the ground, which (per the judgment of Adam) were produced by his own labor.
it is my opinion that Abel prophesies by this, pointing eventually to Christ's own blood being poured out of us in finality, Whose body perfected forever all who put their trust in Him, in contrast to Cain who offered in a sense the works of his own hands.
it is my opinion that Abel prophesies by this, pointing eventually to Christ's own blood being poured out of us in finality, Whose body perfected forever all who put their trust in Him, in contrast to Cain who offered in a sense the works of his own hands.
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