Is Messiah,(The Anointed One) the Father?

JohnTalmid · Jul 24, 2018

From my upbringing I would have continued to believe that Messiah is the Father, (YHWH).
From my experience with study and great inner examination I have come to believe that Messiah is not the Father; though he can not be separated from the Father.
Let me explain...
Elohim is a Hebrew word that I was not familiar with for the beginning of my walk. Even after hearing about it I knew very little to justify my personally held belief that Messiah is God.
Elohim is the plural form of Elohi which we know as God. That is in Genesis we see a plural "Elohi",(God). This is were things like "let us create" comes from. I believe that Messiah did create all things and that is to say the Father created all things through Messiah as we find in scripture.
I have found it a difficult thing at times to uncover a truth that knocks over my entire cart of apples. However because the Truth shall make you free I carefully pick them up and put them in order for scriptures sake. Sometimes I find a bad apple that puts the whole cart in jeopardy so I toss it out.
When we read, Psalm 82:6 "you are Elohim" and Messiah's allegorical reference to it I must question it. Surly he didn't mean I am the Father because my sin has definitely shown that is not so.
It is written that we are slaves to sin. Romans 6 shows us that in Messiah we are no longer enslaved by sin. It shows us that we are to be slaves to righteousness,(The Word of Elohim). Messiah made a reference to the children of the devil and the children of his Father. He said that the children of the devil do what their father wants, and the children of Elohim do what Messiah's Father instructs.
So back to the word Elohim. It is a fascinating word because in it Dwell not only the children of the Father but also the innumerable host of the Kingdom of Heaven. In this word we are known as the son's of the Father, as well as obedient followers of the way. We are both god and we belong to the Father. We can not however by our own integrity become like God. We must trust in the Holy One of Elohim for our redemption to come. When that day comes we will be changed in a moment to be as Messiah is. Until then he has left us a teacher and comforter to direct our feet to the path of light and that path is written for all to see. In the testimony of those who came before us we find the Father's instructions in righteousness. It is so difficult for any to see because for so long we have fought tooth and nail to deny that truth. That we are to forsake the world and live for truth when we become "saved". Believe on the Messiah and guard his ways friends. This is how we know we are on the path towards redemption. So many times I have been to various churches to find NO peace in the congregation. When I bring this up they call me a legalist going to hell. Or they bring up "do you put yourself under the law"... I don't want to condemn anyone because I have been humbled by the way. I see my sin laid before me and weep because of what I have done. However continued on to hope for the Love of Elohim and His Faithfulness I have found sanctification through applying the word of Elohim. My prayer is for you also to seek understanding and find truth, peace, and the better way.
Shalom in Messiah Y'shua John Talmid

rlm68 · Jul 24, 2018

Elohim is plural to those believing in the trinity concept. However, Elohim is actually defined singularly by the Hebrew/Jews meaning only ONE. And since the Hebrews wrote the Old Testament that brought us the word Elohim, it would be wise of us to use it in context how the Hebrews actually meant it to be.

And one must remember when reading scripture that we read it how it was written and when it was written according to their understanding back then. And if you look at the Bible from an outside perspective, maybe a from a third person view, you can see it as it was written.

Example:
I ran after the ball.

in third person view:
I use my name (Joe Snow)(instead of I) ran after the ball = Joe Snow ran after the ball.
When you read Joe Snow ran after the ball, you now think it is someone different than the writer, a second person involved, but it obviously is not. It still is "I ran after the ball."

This is same with scripture.

the Elohim definition to show you what I meant:

The Hebrew Name for God - Elohim
www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Elohim/elohim.html
The Hebrew Name for God - Elohim and Elohei ... of El, meaning "Strong One." The Name Elohim occurs 2,570 times in ... indicating 1st person singular (Genesis 1:26).

This is rather clear the Hebrews use Elohim as singular = ONE GOD.
and they used the reference of Genesis 1:26 (Let us make man) = not plural, but singular in meaning.

Which means the( Let US) is speaking in third person terms like I gave example (I ran after the ball v Joe Snow ran after the ball).

So, once you know how the Hebrews meant Elohim to mean singular one person God, you see a clearer picture in the Bible!!

Nehemiah6 · Jul 24, 2018

JohnTalmid said:

The issue you must deal with is whether "the Word" is God or not, and whether the Bible clearly states that "the Word is God" (John 1:1).

MESSIAH = CHRIST = THE LORD JESUS CHRIST = THE WORD = GOD = THE SON OF GOD = GOD THE SON

GOD = GOD THE FATHER

THE HOLY SPIRIT = GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT

ELOHIM = GOD (UNIPLURAL) = FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT
ONE GOD, THREE PERSONS

p_rehbein · Jul 24, 2018

God the Father: God of man

God the Son: God as man

God the Holy Spirit: God within man

they are 3 in 1..........and the Holy Trinity is Truth......

jb · Jul 25, 2018

I did a blog on this, you can find it Here and Here

Noblemen · Jul 25, 2018

JohnTalmid said:

From my upbringing I would have continued to believe that Messiah is the Father, (YHWH).
From my experience with study and great inner examination I have come to believe that Messiah is not the Father; though he can not be separated from the Father.
Let me explain...
Elohim is a Hebrew word that I was not familiar with for the beginning of my walk. Even after hearing about it I knew very little to justify my personally held belief that Messiah is God.
Elohim is the plural form of Elohi which we know as God. That is in Genesis we see a plural "Elohi",(God). This is were things like "let us create" comes from. I believe that Messiah did create all things and that is to say the Father created all things through Messiah as we find in scripture.
I have found it a difficult thing at times to uncover a truth that knocks over my entire cart of apples. However because the Truth shall make you free I carefully pick them up and put them in order for scriptures sake. Sometimes I find a bad apple that puts the whole cart in jeopardy so I toss it out.
When we read, Psalm 82:6 "you are Elohim" and Messiah's allegorical reference to it I must question it. Surly he didn't mean I am the Father because my sin has definitely shown that is not so.
It is written that we are slaves to sin. Romans 6 shows us that in Messiah we are no longer enslaved by sin. It shows us that we are to be slaves to righteousness,(The Word of Elohim). Messiah made a reference to the children of the devil and the children of his Father. He said that the children of the devil do what their father wants, and the children of Elohim do what Messiah's Father instructs.
So back to the word Elohim. It is a fascinating word because in it Dwell not only the children of the Father but also the innumerable host of the Kingdom of Heaven. In this word we are known as the son's of the Father, as well as obedient followers of the way. We are both god and we belong to the Father. We can not however by our own integrity become like God. We must trust in the Holy One of Elohim for our redemption to come. When that day comes we will be changed in a moment to be as Messiah is. Until then he has left us a teacher and comforter to direct our feet to the path of light and that path is written for all to see. In the testimony of those who came before us we find the Father's instructions in righteousness. It is so difficult for any to see because for so long we have fought tooth and nail to deny that truth. That we are to forsake the world and live for truth when we become "saved". Believe on the Messiah and guard his ways friends. This is how we know we are on the path towards redemption. So many times I have been to various churches to find NO peace in the congregation. When I bring this up they call me a legalist going to hell. Or they bring up "do you put yourself under the law"... I don't want to condemn anyone because I have been humbled by the way. I see my sin laid before me and weep because of what I have done. However continued on to hope for the Love of Elohim and His Faithfulness I have found sanctification through applying the word of Elohim. My prayer is for you also to seek understanding and find truth, peace, and the better way.
Shalom in Messiah Y'shua John Talmid

If we believe in the Trinity you will understand Jesus is not the Father, the Father is not the HolySpirit, the HolySpirit is not Jesus, yet they are all one. It just is and the mind can not comprehend such a thing on its own.

JohnTalmid · Jul 25, 2018

Thank you for all of your replies to my post. I however am not a Calvinist. I don't believe in the so called Trinity doctrine. I believe that Messiah is Elohim and his Father is the One True Elohi. The difference between what I have come to understand is in a command given for the people of Elohim to meditate on, talk about along the way, and teach to our children. It is, "Hear O-Israel YHWH our God, YHWH is One,(unified with His people). Blessed is the name of His Kingdom for ever. "
In this one command I am reminded that Messiah has said, "my prayer is that I may be in you as my Father is in me"
There is one more thing I would like to mention being I hadn't yet addressed the Holy Spirit. One person who I trust said, "Only the Father in Heaven is Good". The instruction meant for correction, edification, and living a life of righteousness is the only thing besides him that is said to also be Holy, or of the Holy Spirit.
So here is what is an acceptable sacrifice, "
Mathew 9:13
"But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

As in obeying the voice of YHWH?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.

23“For rebellion is as the sin of divination,
And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of YHWH,
He has also rejected you from being king.”

Latour · Jul 25, 2018

We know that Jesus proceeds from the Father. He and the Father are one.

For those who wish to do a deeper study on the matter, the bible reveals some startling sayings concerning who Jesus is.

Both the Father AND Jesus are called יהוה which means a one time they were the same person. In Zech. 2 we see the Lord sending the Lord. In both cases the word for Lord is יהוה (meaning Yahveh or Jehovah).

Zech. 2:8 "For thus says the Lord of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. 9 For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me."
10 “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” says the Lord. 11 “Many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you.

Latour · Jul 25, 2018

Here is another example....

Zech. 10:12 And I will strengthen them in the Lord; and they shall walk up and down in his name, saith the Lord.

Here the Lord is making reference to the Lord as another person.

p_rehbein · Jul 25, 2018

JohnTalmid said:

Thank you for all of your replies to my post. I however am not a Calvinist. I don't believe in the so called Trinity doctrine. I believe that Messiah is Elohim and his Father is the One True Elohi. The difference between what I have come to understand is in a command given for the people of Elohim to meditate on, talk about along the way, and teach to our children. It is, "Hear O-Israel YHWH our God, YHWH is One,(unified with His people). Blessed is the name of His Kingdom for ever. "
In this one command I am reminded that Messiah has said, "my prayer is that I may be in you as my Father is in me"
There is one more thing I would like to mention being I hadn't yet addressed the Holy Spirit. One person who I trust said, "Only the Father in Heaven is Good". The instruction meant for correction, edification, and living a life of righteousness is the only thing besides him that is said to also be Holy, or of the Holy Spirit.
So here is what is an acceptable sacrifice, "
Mathew 9:13
"But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

As in obeying the voice of YHWH?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.

23“For rebellion is as the sin of divination,
And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of YHWH,
He has also rejected you from being king.”

Belief in the Holy Trinity is not a Calvinist only belief FYI.

As for it's Biblical Truth, the entire Gospel of John declares, describes and justifies the Truth of the Holy Trinity.

Latour · Jul 25, 2018

JohnTalmid said:

From my upbringing I would have continued to believe that Messiah is the Father, (YHWH).
From my experience with study and great inner examination I have come to believe that Messiah is not the Father; though he can not be separated from the Father.
Let me explain...
Elohim is a Hebrew word that I was not familiar with for the beginning of my walk. Even after hearing about it I knew very little to justify my personally held belief that Messiah is God.
Elohim is the plural form of Elohi which we know as God. That is in Genesis we see a plural "Elohi",(God). This is were things like "let us create" comes from. I believe that Messiah did create all things and that is to say the Father created all things through Messiah as we find in scripture.
I have found it a difficult thing at times to uncover a truth that knocks over my entire cart of apples. However because the Truth shall make you free I carefully pick them up and put them in order for scriptures sake. Sometimes I find a bad apple that puts the whole cart in jeopardy so I toss it out.
When we read, Psalm 82:6 "you are Elohim" and Messiah's allegorical reference to it I must question it. Surly he didn't mean I am the Father because my sin has definitely shown that is not so.
It is written that we are slaves to sin. Romans 6 shows us that in Messiah we are no longer enslaved by sin. It shows us that we are to be slaves to righteousness,(The Word of Elohim). Messiah made a reference to the children of the devil and the children of his Father. He said that the children of the devil do what their father wants, and the children of Elohim do what Messiah's Father instructs.
So back to the word Elohim. It is a fascinating word because in it Dwell not only the children of the Father but also the innumerable host of the Kingdom of Heaven. In this word we are known as the son's of the Father, as well as obedient followers of the way. We are both god and we belong to the Father. We can not however by our own integrity become like God. We must trust in the Holy One of Elohim for our redemption to come. When that day comes we will be changed in a moment to be as Messiah is. Until then he has left us a teacher and comforter to direct our feet to the path of light and that path is written for all to see. In the testimony of those who came before us we find the Father's instructions in righteousness. It is so difficult for any to see because for so long we have fought tooth and nail to deny that truth. That we are to forsake the world and live for truth when we become "saved". Believe on the Messiah and guard his ways friends. This is how we know we are on the path towards redemption. So many times I have been to various churches to find NO peace in the congregation. When I bring this up they call me a legalist going to hell. Or they bring up "do you put yourself under the law"... I don't want to condemn anyone because I have been humbled by the way. I see my sin laid before me and weep because of what I have done. However continued on to hope for the Love of Elohim and His Faithfulness I have found sanctification through applying the word of Elohim. My prayer is for you also to seek understanding and find truth, peace, and the better way.
Shalom in Messiah Y'shua John Talmid

Actually the singular form of elohim is El....as in Imanou El (God with us). אמנו אל It is of note that it doesn't say Imanou Elohim...the plural form....as Jesus is coming singularly, although He a member of the Godhead.

The fact that the word is translated erroneously as a single word..."Immanuel" in the MSS would make it into a name as any other name. But it is 2 words meaning this is not a name but literally "God with us."

We see that same translation error for Maranatha ...which is actually 2 words in Aramaic...Maran atha meaning the "Lord is coming."

rlm68 · Jul 25, 2018

p_rehbein said:

It definitely describes the fullness of God in Christ, since in John we learn Christ claims the Father lives inside Him and is doing the miracles and saying the things they heard Christ say. Plus, we learn Christ is the great I AM.

As far as the trinity is concerned, Christ never mentions three of anything. But people will see what they want to see according to how they believe!!

OstrichSmiling · Jul 25, 2018

JohnTalmid said:

Three separate and distinct "persons" is Poly-Theism and indicative of Roman paganism.
God is the holy spirit. The creator, The Word, I Am, described in scripture. One and no other but the one. God created male and female in Genesis. He created Yeshua, Jesus, in the womb of Mary because he is the source of all things. Jesus was born in the flesh God created for humans to exist as in the beginning. And indwelt the flesh, begat himself, upon Mary because as sacred and holy spirit no human could gaze upon him if he delivered his ministry in that form and live.

John 10:30 - "I and [my] Father are one. "
"22.All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23“Behold! The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel” (which means, “God with us”). 24When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and embraced Mary as his wife." Matthew 1

1 Timothy 2:5 - For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

Isaiah 43:11 - I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Deuteronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

James 2:19 - Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Isaiah 43:10 - Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Jude 1:25 - To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Isaiah 42:8 - I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Mark 12:29 - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Nehemiah6 · Jul 25, 2018

OstrichSmiling said:

That is a NONSENSICAL statement, and here's the proof:

And Jesus, [PERSON #1] when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: [PERSON #2] And lo a voice from heaven, [PERSON #3] saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matthew 3:16,17)

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father [PERSON #3], and of the Son [PERSON #1], and of the Holy Ghost [PERSON #2] (Mt 28:19)

OstrichSmiling · Jul 25, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

It's all the one God. Holy Spirit is Christ. God is Holy Spirit =Hagios Pneuma
Mark 12
The early Christians , first century, did not know a "trinity" teaching.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jul 25, 2018

OstrichSmiling said:

GOD is not emanations. He is spirit, but not the holy spirit. The holy spirit is sent out into all creation to do the father's work, but the father (the one true GOD) is too holy to be in the presence of sin.

rlm68 · Jul 25, 2018

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Interesting...God is too Holy to be in us because we are sinful, but God's Spirit is not that Holy so it can be in us (is basically what your statement reads).

This would mean from a trinitarians point of view, not all three are equal.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jul 25, 2018

rlm68 said:

That's not what I said. I said the father is too holy to dwell in us. He dwells in us through his holy spirit. I really have no idea how it all parses out, but there is holy, and there is most holy. I'm sure the holy spirit is most holy, but it is able to dwell with sinful men without destroying them, whereas the father is not.

rlm68 · Jul 25, 2018

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

The BLOOD of Christ is how God can live within us. And of course, it had to Holy Blood of a perfect sacrifice, which Christ was/is that.

What is interesting, is that we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior and He then lives within us. But it is His Holy Spirit that lives in us even though we definitely can claim Christ lives in us. And knowing we can claim Christ lives in us when we know it's specifically the Holy Spirit, would make one believe that Christ and the Holy Spirit are the same, since we can call the Holy Spirit in us, Christ!!

OstrichSmiling · Jul 25, 2018

rlm68 said:

1 Peter 4:14
If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.
Holy spirit is also called the spirit of God, in scripture.
Holy spirit describes that spirit as one that is of course holy. Therefore, holy spirit.

Holy Spirit = (holy)Hagios (spirit) Pneuma

ἅγιος (hagios)
Strong: G39, G40

GK: G41

separate from common condition and use; dedicated. Lk. 2:23; hallowed; used of things, τὰ ἅγια, the sanctuary; and of persons, saints, e.g., members of the first Christian communities; pure, righteous, ceremonially or morally; holy

πνεῦμα (pneuma)
Strong: G4151

GK: G4460

wind, air in motion, Jn. 3:8; breath, 2 Thess. 2:8; the substance spirit, Jn. 3:6; a spirit, spiritual being, Jn. 4:24; Acts 23:8, 9; Heb. 1:14; a bodiless spirit, specter, Lk. 24:37; a foul spirit, δαιμόνιον, Mt. 8:16; Lk. 10:20; spirit, as a vital principle, Jn. 6:63; 1 Cor. 15:45; the human spirit, the soul, Mt. 26:41; 27:50; Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 7:34; Jas. 2:26; the spirit as the seat of thought and feeling, the mind, Mk. 8:12; Acts 19:21; spirit, mental frame, 1 Cor. 4:21; 1 Pet. 3:4; a characteristic spirit, an influential principle, Lk. 9:55; 1 Cor. 2:12; 2 Tim. 1:7; a pervading influence, Rom. 11:8; spirit, frame of mind, as distinguished from outward circumstances and action, Mt. 5:3; spirit as distinguished from outward show and form. Jn. 4:23; spirit, a divinely bestowed spiritual frame, characteristic of true believers, Rom. 8:4; Jude 19; spirit, latent spiritual import, spiritual significance, as distinguished from the mere letter, Rom. 2:29; 7:6; 2 Cor. 3:6, 17; spirit, as a term for a process superior to a merely natural or carnal course of things, by the operation of the Divine Spirit, Rom. 8:4; Gal. 4:29; a spiritual dispensation, or a sealing energy of the Holy Spirit, Heb. 9:14; the Holy Spirit, Mt. 3:16; 12:31; Jn. 1:32, 33; a gift of the Holy Spirit, Jn. 7:39; Acts 19:2; 1 Cor. 14:12; an operation or influence of the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor. 12:3; a spiritual influence, an inspiration, Mt. 22:43; Lk. 2:27; Eph. 1:17; a professedly divine communication, or, a professed possessor of a spiritual communication, 1 Cor. 12:10; 2 Thess. 2:2; 1 Jn. 4:1, 2, 3

Is Messiah,(The Anointed One) the Father?

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