Rapture

He has a great answer for that---
Last does not mean last.

Ahwatukee said,
Cross reference all you want. The grammar and context indicate the Parousia and Harpazo occur at the same time. You know do the harpazo indicates 'the rapture.' Correct? So, did you guys change the meaning of the word 'parousia too? The rapture and second coming/Parousia is mentioned in the same cluster of verses....

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

But you're telling me even though the two are found in the same cluster of verses, they do not occur at the same time or event. Correct? Just making sure we're on the same page.

PAROUSIA

1. presence
2. the coming, arrival, advent
   1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

Harpazo...CAUGHT UP...

1. to seize, carry off by force
2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3. to snatch out or away

SO, if I'm reading correctly, you are saying that there's a seven year difference between 1 Thes. 4:15 and 1 Thes. 4:17? Correct?
When a person mentions, "the enlightenment of the holy spirit", I consider it a cop out. Everybody likes to support their beliefs by attributing their 'superior knowledge' to the Holy Spirit, implying their spirituality gives them the upper hand in the discourse. Besides requesting the holy spirit's help, there is a method to discovering truth. That method being a sensible unbiased hermeneutic. My question would be, "are you willing to change your mind should you beliefs be refuted?"
If that were true, the 12 apostles wouldn't have been skinned, stoned, sawed, burned and beheaded! Righteousness doesn't exempt anyone from tribulation. The only reason pre-tribbers believe they will not go through tribulation is because that's what the big guns like Thomas Ice etc. mislead them to believe.

During the tribulation, the wrath of God is directed toward unbelievers, especially the followers of the men of sin and those who take the mark. We know that in the end times most people will let their love grow cold and that some will actually depart from the faith (Matthew 24:12, 1 Timothy 4:1). I believe the tribulation will lead many to Christ and it will help purify the Church.
He didn't remove Noah from the flood, Daniel from the lions den, the three Hebrew children from the furnace, or Job from his trials.

These are the verses you guys use to support the idea Christians won't go through tribulation and suffer "GOD'S WRATH."

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

I'm very troubled that people believe this verse implies God would remove believers by a rapture to avoid enduring the wrath of God. With the application of very simple hermeneutics, one should determine that this wrath is averted by Christ through repentance and attributed to salvation. It has to do with God's Judgment! So take a look at the context in bold...

For they that sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Pretribbers have horribly distorted the meaning of that verse!

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

This is directed specifically to the church at Philadelphia. And there's no mention of the end-times in the entire passage. The phrase, "to try them that dwell upon the earth," doesn't imply the entire planet.

The word all...'HOLOS' is used with the word 'earth' doesn't always mean the entire planet. BUT! The primary meaning is "the inhabited earth or a portion of the earth." Since the context is a specific church in a specific are, the context indicates, "the inhabited earth." Revelation 3:10 has absolutely nothing to do with a rapture!

earth

1. arable land
2. the ground, the earth as a standing place
3. the main land as opposed to the sea or water
4. the earth as a whole
   1. the earth as opposed to the heavens
   2. the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animal
      
      world
5. the inhabited earth
   1. the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
   2. the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
   3. the whole inhabited earth, the world
   4. the inhabitants of the earth, men
6. the universe, the world

One more important point and probably the most important point! The Greek word translated as “keep” in the phrase, “keep you from the hour of trial” DOESN’T MEAN to “take out of” or “remove from” the hour of trial. It means to attend to carefully, take care of, guard, metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is, to observe, to reserve: to undergo something.

So what is Revelation 3:10 saying, AND WHAT IS IT NOT SAYING?
IT DOESN'T IMPLY A REMOVAL FROM TRIBULATION ACROSS THE ENTIRE PLANET AT THE END OF THE AGE.
It does imply a safe keeping of Christians at the Church of Philadelphia. There was no such “test” upon the whole Earth around the time that the Apostle John wrote to the Church at Philadelphia. Only a portion of it.
--------------------------
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Not the second coming???
coming
PAROUSIA

1. presence
2. the coming, arrival, advent
   1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

When ascertaining the meaning of a certain author's usage of a word, like "trumpet," we should look first to see how they use it elsewhere in the same book/epistle (and then to that author's other writings). There were more purposes for blowing trumpet than just one (see Numbers 10). The 7 trumpets of Revelation are distinct from this one (as is the "GREAT" trumpet of Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13).

As for the word "Parousia" (re: His presence)... it depends (per context) on "where" His presence will be, and in whose presence He will be. When we ("the Church which is His body") is caught up together WITH THEM (the dead IN Christ) [as ONE BODY], in the air, "to the meeting of the Lord" ("our episynagōgēs UNTO HIM") He will be in no one else's presence, nor will they be in His.


Also, consider the following:

Luke 14 -

31[hcsb] "Or what king, going to war against another king, will not first sit down [G2523 - having sat down (5x of Jesus after His resurrection, Hebrews & Revelation)--to have fixed one's abode, tarry, settle/settle down, sojourn'] and decide [G1011 - bouleusetai - takes counsel (middle voice)] if he is able with 10,000 to oppose the one who comes against him with 20,000?

32[ylt] and if not so [/or else]-- he being yet a long way off -- having sent an embassy [an ambassage, delegation, eldership (age, seniority)] he doth ask the things for peace [peace, peace of mind; invocation of peace a common Jewish farewell, in the Hebraistic sense of the health (welfare) of an individual; Probably from a primary verb eiro (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication, prosperity -- one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again] [--portions of brackets from Bible Hub]


[see also "Demons and the Swine" Matthew 8:28-34 esp .29 "torment us before the time?"; Mark 5:1-20, esp 9,15 "Legion" (very large number--perhaps like Rev9:16esv "The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number"<--note: I'm still uncertain whether these are on the bad team or on the Good team in this second half of Rev9 [see then, Dan7:10b "and ten thousand times ten thousand stood [set/established/arise (also used of the neg. earthly kings in vv.17,24--note the order/sequence)] before him"<--these are on the Good team (I believe the setting is in Heaven [shades of Rev5])]); Luke 8:26-39 esp 30,32 "Legion"/"many" (again, the demons)]

TheDivineWatermark said,

Why would there be any other trumpet(s) other than the seven? The seventh trumpet is also the 'last trump'. Two distinct references to a trumpet sounding at the end....the last one is the 7th one!

This is yet another reason pre-tribbers had to fabricate some "other trumpet." It's a major contradiction! So what pre-tribbers had to do is 'differentiate' and call the 7 trumpets "tribulation trumpets, and the one that sounds at the 'harpazo' called "the last trump" a rapture trumpet. You guys can't see that this is just another 'adding to' and fabrication deny and cover up the pre-trib contradiction that the "the LAST trump" of 1 Cor. 15:52 is the last of the consecutive "seven trumpets!" Like everything else, YOU FABRICATED ANOTHER ONE!
LOGIC; The seven trumpets are written in an order. The post trib view is that they sound in consecutive ORDER.

John says in Revelation 10:7...
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Paul says in 1 Cor: 15:51-52A...
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
See a similarity?

Paul had several choices as what word for LAST he could use in 1 Cor. 15:52. He chose this one...
eschatos...Pay attention to the meaning and notice the bold!
extreme
last in time or in place
last in a series of places
last in a temporal succession
the last
last, referring to time
of space, the uttermost part, the end, of the earth
of rank, grade of worth, last i.e. lowest

Even more impressive is that pre-tribbers claim this is a Jewish trumpet that sounds at the feast of the Trumpets! A trumpet sounding from a religion that denies Christ in the first place! I looked at the "Rapture Ready" answer to this pre-trib delima and wow! What fabricated foolishness...
__________________________________________________________________________
In the movies Ben-Hur and The Wizard of Oz, I recall hearing the sounding of trumpets. Are both these trumpets somehow prophetically related?
If your friend John said he went to his favorite restaurant last night, and another friend Larry said he also went to his favorite restaurant last night, is it logical for you to assume they both went to the same restaurant? Obviously not, because even though John and Larry went to their favorite restaurants, they may have had two different eating establishments in mind. The same logic should apply with the word trumpet.
WOW!
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I could go on and on, and I don't suspect you get the point, and I certainly don't believe you will change your mind.
Pre-trib is the most widely held, fabricated, contradictory, complicated, deceitful doctrine to ever enter the church.
I know there are. One of them is to cover up pre-trib contradictions! John the Christian said...

"How did Paul know, prior to the writing of Revelation, that the resurrection-rapture would occur at the last trumpet? Aside from Divine Inspiration, he had the Word of God to go on, as he knew from Daniel 12 and from the Olivet Discourse of Jesus that the resurrection-rapture would be at Armageddon, which is the end of current history, meaning that there could not be any trumpets thereafter. But if he thought that the resurrection-rapture would occur years prior to Armageddon, he would not have called it the "last." Nor would Divine Inspiration have allowed it."
Did you pay attention to the word PAROUSIA? You've just contradicted it. His presence comes at the arrival of his second advent when Jesus raises the dead. holds the last judgment, and formally sets up his kingdom! IF Jesus was to return only as far as the clouds, and then go back up, that's no presence at all!

presence
the coming, arrival, advent
the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
Pre-trib, what a fabricated mess!

I was coming back on to post the following passage when I discovered your post (responding to mine). I will have to get back to that tomorrow (or perhaps a little later even), as I only have a minute right now.

In the mean time, here's the passage I was coming back to post:


Jeremiah 22:1-4 -

"1 Thus saith the LORD; Go down to the house of the king of Judah, and speak there this word, 2 And say, Hear the word of the LORD, O king of Judah, that sittest upon the throne of David, thou, and thy servants, and thy people that enter in by these gates: 3 Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled [the seized, catch, consume, exercise robbery, pluck off, rob, spoil, take away by force - H1497 - gazal] out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place. 4 For if ye do this thing indeed, then shall there enter in by the gates of this house kings sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, he, and his servants, and his people."


Revelation 4-5 shows the 24 elders to be sitting on thrones, wearing gold stephanos/crowns [2Tim4:8 "in that day"], and "the Church which is His body" is told "we shall judge angels" [1Cor6:3(14); whereas "the 12" were told they will "sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel" Luk22:30/Matt19:28 (note: "WHEN"-- Matt25:31-34, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth)]

I'll respond to this part, real quick...

As a pre-tribber, it is not my viewpoint that the Rapture will occur on the Feast of Trumpets

... and I wasn't aware that Rapture Ready permitted anyone on that site to suggest such a thing (meaning, any specific date or feast), but perhaps I'm wrong on that, who knows. lol


And maybe... give it some thought about the issue regarding His "presence" (Parousia)... At the time of our Rapture, that will be "in the air" and then (in my view) immediately following that, the "whose coming/advent/arrival/PRESENCE/parousia" of the man of sin will be what unfolds upon the earth, starting with his "be revealed" at the START of the 70th Week/7-yrs (2Th2 is covering all 7 years' time, not just 3.5yrs; Dan9:27a[26]=2Th2:9a).

Yes that wrath is the finial judgment or carrying out of the first. Those who know Christ as those who have a new spirit that will never die will not be judged they are part of the first resurrection given a new spirit.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John3:18

Those who know not Christ have already been judged. The second judgment is the execution as being cast into the lake of fire not a trial of those who are already dead. Those who have already been judged when they depart, their temporal corrupted spirit returns to the father .They will not rise to new spirit life on the last day

Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The idea that God is going to raise up bones with no spirit life and put dead bones on trial is a idea coming from Catholicism in order to make their necromancy doctrines of men work out . Like the trial of Pope Formosos .(987 A.D.)

Very confusing reply. I know, like several other things, pre-tribbers can't even agree on the exact trumpet, even though the Word LAST clearly implies the 'seventh' trumpet. Most pre-tribbers believe it's a Jewish trumpet from the "Feast of the Trumpets." Tell me which one you think it is so I can document it as another pre-trib fab.

Even though i don't hold the post trib or mid trib positions, his explanation as to why it is not pre trib is perfect.

At the time Jesus spoke the Olivet Discourse, He had not yet spoken to His disciples about the Rapture. Everything He addressed (except for a few verses in Lk21 regarding the events of 70ad) pertained there to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (the subject He was covering there is NOT the Rapture, per context).

The disciples' question (questions) in Matt24:3 were based on what He had ALREADY TALKED with them about, in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the angels will REAP), i.e. His Second Coming to the earth (and who will enter the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, upon His "return" there).

[didn't watch the video, so not sure what it covers]

And where does Jesus talk to them about rapture?

This is the closest Jesus said something about rapture and it's actually the opposite of rapture:
John 17:14 I have given them Your word and the world has hated them; for they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.

^ In His Upper Room Discourse I believe He is covering more than one issue...

but part of what He says in His Upper Room Discourse, is this:

John 16 -

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go [active] to the Father.


[see remainder of context--pertains to the very day of His resurrection, as also what He says to Mary Magdalene (John 20:17--active), on that very day, shows as well (Lev23:10-12)]

--1Cor2:9-10

To understand some of the chronology (and timing) issues, we should look at a few passages:

Hosea 5:15-6:3 (regarding Israel, per context) -

15 I will go and return to my place, till they [Israel] acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their [Israel's] affliction they [Israel] will seek me early [/earnestly].

6:1 Come, and let us [Israel] return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us [Israel]; he hath smitten, and he will bind us [Israel] up.

2 After two days will he revive us [Israel]: in the third day he will raise us [Israel] up, and we [Israel] shall live in his sight.

3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us [Israel] as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.


Also, John 12:48 [in part], "the word which I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

And [I've posted previously], Acts 17:31nasb, "31 because He has fixed [set, established] a day [not a 24-hr day] IN WHICH He will judge the world in righteousness through/in a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him [in having raised him] [out-]from the dead.”


I believe this BEGINS when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev4-5; Lam2:3-4; etc), at the START of the 70th Week/7-yrs... and His rule continues into the promised and prophesied earthly MK, all of which I believe to be "the Last Day"

The so many things that Jesus was yet to say could not contradict what He had already said and certainly not this prayer:

John 17:14 I have given them Your word and the world has hated them; for they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.

It is also amazing that Jesus did not teach rapture, so it is just your understanding that fails.

I see Rev. 4, 5 as the same event here: 1 Thess. 4:16, 17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

It doesn't say we will stay in the air or heaven. When Christ comes back the next time, He will stay. He will circle the globe for the rapture then set His feet on the Mount of Olives. Fulfilling this prophecy: Acts 1:10, 11 "And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

The church will be on earth during the tribulation. Many of the saints will be put to death during this time (see Rev. 2:10 & 13:7). Nobody is going to heaven. Heaven is coming to earth. There are only two resurrections. The first at Christ's coming and the second after the 1000 years (Rev. 20:5).

If we are raptured away before the tribulation, how does this happen?

Rev. 11:7 “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.”

Rev. 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”

Dan. 7:21, 22 “I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”

[In response to NOOSE] Did you read the last paragraph of my post #105?

I'm not saying that Jesus did not speak of it whatsoever, I just said that He covered (in His Upper Room Discourse) more than one issue.
And it IN NO WAY contradicts what He had said, at any time. [context is of big importance, on this point]

Additionally, 1Cor15:23 says, "[re: resurrection] but every man [/each] IN HIS OWN ORDER..." (meaning, there is a SEQUENCE to it). If there remains only a singular resurrection, this phrase would be superfluous. It's not, however.

I'm not disagreeing that there IS indeed a resurrection FOLLOWING/AT THE END of the trib (per Daniel 12:13 re: OT saints; Trib saints who die in the trib as well, Rev20:4b), just that this is not when "the Rapture [including resurrection]" of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" occurs. [Eph1:20-23 "when"; "the Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all other time periods (though there are indeed other saints of other time periods! [ALL will be present in the MK time period])]

Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It says that tribulation saints' resurrection is the first resurrection- First means first, what are you going to do about that?
The order doesn't matter because in whatever order, this must be the FIRST resurrection.

I read your post #105 but it still doesn't make sense.

There is "the resurrection of LIFE," and "the resurrection of JUDGMENT [/condemnation]".


In the first, this applies, "6Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection," and it includes:

--Jesus' own resurrection (32ad)

--"the Church which is His body" ("the dead IN Christ"; at the Rapture)

--the Two Witnesses (at the 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe time frame, DURING the trib)

--the Trib saints who die [or are martyred] in the trib (Rev20:4b; at the END of the trib)

--OT saints (Dan12:13 "at the END of the days [the days referred to in that context, so at the END of the trib, also]")


--[add to this, that Israel's coming up out of the "graveyard of nations" is LIKENED to a "resurrection"--Rom11:15, Hos5:15-6:3, Isa26:16-21, Ezek37:12-14,20-23, Dan12:1-3 (with its timing), etc...]


ALL of THAT ^ is "a part of" the first Resurrection (that "OF LIFE")



... the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were completed. [these in Rev20 are among the unrighteous dead/unsaved dead of all times, final sentence carried out at the GWTj]


"each IN HIS OWN ORDER" (there is a sequence, rather than there be only remaining A SINGULAR "resurrection"]

Your misunderstanding the verse tdw and the verse is not "superfluous." In fact, the sequence your talking about is explained at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. Paul is saying don't worry about those who are asleep/dead (vs13) because they will be first and then the rest of those who are alive (vs15) shall follow. What is "superfluous" about that?

Secondly, going back to 1 Corinthians 15:23 the "first fruits" is the order which is Jesus Christ first, then the dead/asleep and then those who are alive. Did you notice vs24, "THEN COMES THE END." So here is a question for you? If the pre-trib view is correct then there would be no end. Or for that matter at 1 Corinthians 15:52 there would be no "last trumpet" either if the pretrib was true. The lengths you guys have to go to two squeeze two pounds of pretrib baloney into a one pound second coming.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Of "the dead in Christ" (here ^ ) these are indeed physically "resurrected"... and that happens just before the "THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with [G4862] them... " (that is, AS ONE... ONE BODY). Notice the "THEN," this means the RAPTURE applies to both "the dead in Christ" AND the "we which are alive and remain"... but not the "resurrection" (physically to "stand again" on the earth; and here, just before we are caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM<--this aspect alone is "the Rapture")

This part... is why I brought out the things regarding the further context [than what I quoted] in John 16 and the related things I mentioned about MM in John 20:17 (and its related Lev23:10-12--being fulfilled on the very day of His Resurrection, not the 40-day later visible [and then 'passive'] ascension). I purposely brought out those details for your [the viewers of thread] further examination and consideration.

As for the word "THEN" in 1Cor15:24, that is a different Grk word which only has reference to SEQUENCE, but with no "time element" attached/involved. This is why the first item in the list occurred 2000 years before the later item in the list ('at His coming'--that is listed as second in the LIST / SEQUENCE), so in this case "THEN" (in the phrase "THEN the end") can perfectly refer to another item 1000 years from THAT (in THIS context; and with THIS Grk word; additionally, "comes" is not in the Grk... it's just "THEN the end" [and recall, SEQUENCE only [G1534], with no time element attached]).