Rapture

Well if you want to use that line of reasoning where "then the end" where it "could" mean another item 1000 years from THAT etc. Then what about 1 Corinthians 15:52 where it says, "AT THE LAST TRUMPET?" Does that mean there will some more "last" trumpets a 1000 years later? Why is it you can't just take the context for what it "specifically" says and means? Lastly, let me ask you if it's possible for you to reconsider your position after more study? Be open minded to the fact that you may be wrong? Now, you can very well ask me the same thing and my answer to you would be that for about 20 years after being a Christian I believed the exact same thing as you. I was open minded enough to study in more detail and come to the conclusion I was wrong and here it is 35 years later. Just saying! You might find the following article interesting about Corrie Ten Boom. https://z3news.com/w/corrie-ten-boom-beware-false-teaching-pretribulation-rapture/

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I'm saying that the other reasoning is flawed (based on the Grk word used in v.24 [edited to correct reference, sorry ], plus its overall context, plus other supporting Scriptures) to state that "THEN [G1534] the end" means "then immediately the end" instead of "then [in sequential order] the end" (which fits perfectly well with the later Revelation [read: 'further information'] telling us specifically that "the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were completed" (to stand before the GWTj for the sentence to be fully carried out, in that, they are at that time cast into the lake of fire); This ALSO correlates perfectly with the previous revelation in Isaiah 24:21-23 [and ITS sequence shown] <--which starting point corresponds with Rev19:19/16:14-16 at the time of His Second Coming to the earth; so it says, "...the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth [see Rev19:19/16:14-16]. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, AND AFTER MANY DAYS [amill HAS NO "many days" after this point, for example] they shall be visited/punished." [i.e. GWTj following the 1000 yr MK])].


No, I believe the CONTEXT of 1Cor15:51-54 [2Cor5:3-4] pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (of whom "the Rapture" SOLELY pertains--not to all other saints of all other time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints who die in the trib, not to MK saints (those who are born during the MK and who come to faith/are righteous [all within the MK time period]). So "the last trumpet" pertains solely to the Rapture (of "the Church which is His body"). And so this is also where examining the different purposes for sounding trumpet/s comes in. Not all purposes are stated to be the same purpose.


I do, and I am.


I am and have always been willing to go where the text leads me. I've been examining it since the 70s, fairly intently (so something like 40+ yrs), and I've not run into an argument that successfully and biblically debunks it (though I do hear a lot of the oft-repeated, but poorly-studied, supposed reasonings people use thinking they are debunking it).

By the way, I've not read any real in-depth study on the subject, from Corrie Ten Boom... and as well as I like her, I think her arguments would likely be the same I've heard from others, which [thus far in my 40+ years of studying it and hearing supposed rebuttals, anyway] have not held up under close biblical scrutiny.


I do, however, meet a lot of people who are unwilling to deeply examine what *I am presenting (which is the pre-trib viewpoint). But gloss over it without much of an examination, and hastily present the [an] opposing viewpoint, but which when examined, isn't biblically sound.

By the way, I appreciate and am enjoying the convo, bluto, and Noose... and DudleyDorite, and all.

DWM,

Where do you say the rapture occurs in the book of Revelation. Pre-tribbers can't seem to agree on that issue either.

In answer to that, may I ask you if you recall my points regarding Matt22:7-8? (or did you join after that, maybe?)

I see a specific SEQUENCE in the following:

Matt22:7 But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. [70ad events]

8 THEN HE SAID to his slaves/servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.
9 Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’

The "THEN SAITH HE" occurs AFTER the 70ad events, and He's up in Heaven at that point. So the "further revelation" regarding THIS subject, came AFTER 70ad ("THEN SAITH HE to His servants")... and we see that at the very least "[The] Revelation" (95ad) qualifies, and verse 1 states, "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, TO SHEW UNTO His servants [7:4, for example] things which must come to pass [4:1+] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." (not things that must unfold over the course of some 2000 years). So I believe the Rapture does NOT have to be spoken of in the text, we see the 24 elders present there in Heaven before He opens the first Seal (and I think you know what I already stated about that, in this thread, right?)

To that ^, I would add (for clarification), I believe "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural; Matt24:4-8, etc]" equal the "Seals" of Rev6, and that the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:2-3] is the FIRST of those, at the START of the 70th Wk/7-yrs, and that 2Th2 is telling of the sequence of two items: "the Rapture" in relation [time-wise] to the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord [earthly time period, with its 'man of sin']". ONE thing "FIRST" (before "the Day of the Lord" can be PRESENT to unfold upon the earth, over the course of some time).

Does this help?

Now that says a lot. I've heard it several times before. "Just because the event is not mentioned in the text doesn't mean it doesn't occur in the text."

I hope you realize that goes beyond bad hermeneutics.

You guys claim the day of the Lord begins at tribulation's opening day and that the tribulation IS the day of the Lord. The tribulation period is more like Satan's hayday.

Do you know what you just did when you made this statement? "No, I believe the CONTEXT of 1Cor15:51-54 [2Cor5:3-4] pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (of whom "the Rapture" SOLELY pertains--"

I agree with what you said BUT you then added "(of whom "the Rapture" SOLELY pertains." First of all the Apostle Paul is writing to the saints/church, so that's a given. So where did he mention anything about a "Rapture" or even imply a rapture? What your doing is "eisegesis" because your imposing your interpretation into the text. What I'm asking you is to show me the text that is about the rapture of the church BEFORE the second coming?

Incidently, did you read what I said in some of my other post about Hebrews 9:27,28? Here's the context, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this the judgement, vs28, so Christ also having been offered once to bear the sins of many SHALL APPEAR A SECOND TIME FOR SALVATION WITHOUT REFERENCE TO SIN, TO THOSE WHO EAGERLY AWAIT HIM."

So the first appearance of Jesus Christ was to die for the sins of the world, the next time He appears it would be His second coming SALVATION/DELIVERANCE to those who eagerly await Him." I don't understand how you can miss the words or phrases like, "the last trumpet." Or "Then the end." And at Matthew 24:3, "what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age/world?"

Or at Revelation 20 where the time frame is the tribulation and at vs5, "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION." Moreover, starting at Revelation 20:7, please read the rest of the chapter including chapter 21, where the rapture? Also notice at Revelation 21:4 it says, "and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there shall no longer be any mournig, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." How do you connect a pretrib rapture to these words? If were raptured will there be crying and pain when Jesus comes back with those who were enjoying the Lamb's supper? Your position just does not make any sense, especially scriptually speaking.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

In the following passage we are told to suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints. This passage alone thoroughly debunks the idea the church will not endure the tribulation.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
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I've already posted this, and I don't like using so bold and large fonts. BUT! Would you like me to explain what is being said here in 2 Thessalonians?

Well, in the specific answer you are now critiquing, you had asked a specific question about "does that mean there will/could be another 'last trumpet' after the 1000 years?" (in light of what I'd said). And I'm providing the definition of the DIFFERENT Grk word in 1Cor15:24 (G1534) and explaining the context (how verse 24 is not stating "then IMMEDIATELY the end" [but SEQUENTIAL only, with no reference to "time" attached to it]), and providing other supporting Scripture (that also give this sequence but adds the "length of time" in which He will reign whilst Satan is bound in his prison [and then "loosed out of his prison" when the 1000 yrs is completed...]).

In the post I just provided to DudleyDorite (so as not to have to type it all over), I have supplied a couple of specific texts, and in my previous posts I've endeavored to point out some other Scriptures that relate.

2Th2 is stating this sequence 3x and is the SAME SEQUENCE as was provided in 1 Thessalonians 4-5. (Note that I've explained that the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" at the ARRIVAL of the Day of the Lord time period [and which MANY "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" follow on from there] IS the FIRST SEAL--->the man of sin BE REVEALED=the "whose COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/Parousia" of the man of sin [Dan9:27a(26)]=the "[G5100 - tis] 'A CERTAIN ONE' of Matt24:4 / Mk13:5...

DudleyDorite... the text of 2Th1:7 does not (in the Grk) contain the word "WHEN"... the text states, "rest/repose with us in the revelation of..." ... a wholly different idea from the idea you present.


... and keep in mind that this reference is in the wider context of what is being said (conveyed by Paul) in chpts 1-2 as a whole.

I find your replies very confusing. You go all over the place and do all sorts of unnecessary ambiguous things just to answer a simple question.

Sorry. One point I was making had to do with what 1Cor15:24 states:

"THEN [G1534] the end"... Do you believe this verse means "the end" is immediately happening on the heels of the previous verse's subject, or (like I'm saying) that THIS Grk word refers only to SEQUENCE with no time-element attached?

--1st listed item was in 32ad

--2nd listed item is "at His coming" (when "resurrection" occurs)

--3rd listed item is "THEN the end... " (and what happens at that time is named)

If item #1 and #2 are 2000 yrs apart, the third item (#3) can indeed be 1000 yrs apart from item #2, no prob. "THEN [G1534]" is a SEQUENTIAL word with no time-element attached.

Well, three facts you miss or are trying to deliberately avoid:

1. OT saints resurrected when Jesus died- it's on record, people saw them walk the streets of Jerusalem and there's no record of them dying and being buried again so that they be resurrected another time in the future as 'tribulation saints'. And this marked the end of an age and the beginning of a new one.

2. Jesus is God and not a saint and if you want to count Him as a saint, He is a tribulation saint- just in case you forgot, the resurrection of the tribulation saints is the FIRST resurrection.

3. The two witnesses are clearly tribulation saints.

4. Rev 20:4-5 is exclusively a tribulation saints event (no other creatures) and that event is the FIRST resurrection and it also says that the people who participate in that resurrection are blessed, meaning that those who participate in the second resurrection are cursed.

5. The tribulation saints will rule with Christ for 1000 years- we don't see them with other people who supposedly flew off. There will be no other group with Christ.

Read this and understand:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I see two distinct groups this verse. The first group has no reference to having [necessarily] died and resurrected. I'm not insisting THIS group has to be "the Church which is His body" (recall, I see that represented in the 24 elders of chpts 4-5) but it could be, as well.

Either way, I see this verse referring to two distinct groups (both in similar capacities [judging/ruling in the MK time period])... (saints shall 'judge' the world... and I believe that refers to more than merely a 24-hr time slot... there will be mortals who enter the MK time period [the righteous only] but the children born to them are not automatically born righteous)

It could be those from Rev2:26-27; it could be those who've come to faith within the trib years but who remain alive throughout [like the distinction between what Jesus said in John 11:25 and 11:26], such as in passages like Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-48 [and parallel] which states "when He will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal... and then He deals out responsibilities; and the other "RETURN" passage Luke 19:12,15,17,19 when He will deal out responsibilities such as "have thou authority over 10 cities," and to another likewise, "be thou also over 5 cities" (in other words, these people are still living at the time of His Second Coming to the earth... and they receive "authority over" cities... [this is not "the Rapture," though there is indeed a Rapture, this is not its context]).

The second group of the verse have clearly died (DURING the future trib) and been resurrected.

Shooting in the dark hoping to get a target. Well, you got none.
There are no two groups there, it is the tribulation saints aka the church that were promised to rule with Christ after they emerge victorious over the antichrist. These are the promises again:

Rev 2:7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Rev 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Rev 2:17 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

Rev 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’b —just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give that one the morning star. 29Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Rev 3: 5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. 6Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Rev 3:12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Rev 3: 21To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

The question is, the church was to be victorious against what?
The disciples are tribulation saints and these promises would also apply but where do you get the idea that non tribulation saints rule and judge with christ?

In fact, the verse that you quote to support rapture is against the rapture view, take a look at the promise:

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that,we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

We don't see the rapture guyz rule with christ for the 1000 years, where are they? was 1 Thess 4 a false promise or is it just a misunderstanding which we already know it is. The promise is that they will be with the Lord forever. Therefore the 1 Thess 4 verses are about the first resurrection also being spoken of at Rev 20.

Wow, that was a long-winded sermon. I hope Eutychus didn't doze off again.

Revelation 20 is a parable written in a signified language. The metaphor "thousand years" expresses a unknow amount of time. Not a literal thousand years.

The Amil position works the best.

Anytime a specific number is indicated, it means that specific number. Otherwise, it's a false prophecy and we can attach any number we want to it.

He does keep us. No problem there,ps 91 all the way. The devil basically killed all the disciples except John and Judas.
In rev it says ALL EARTHS INHABITANTS take the mark, so it is obvious anyone that is a believer is going to be martyred.
Those martyred are the innumerable number in heaven,and are also the 5 foolish virgins. The church age on earth in almost completely over if not entirely over during the trib.

When I first got saved this was one of the main topics of discussion among Christians and there never was a satisfactory consensus among us so I never developed a conclusive opinion, pre, mid or post trib. In fact I've even heard multi rapture theories. I believe revelations was a warning of what is to come. If we wern't going to be here why were warned to refuse the mark?