A place for rapture questions

I don't deny that a god told you these things but i'm just wondering which god would endeavor to whisper so many lies to you in a very short period of time?

Please get yourself together, no one will be moving around the globe collecting remains of people to take to the middle east or are you just trying to be funny.
God told you nothing because everything is already written down for people to read and understand.

The New Jerusalem remains as a HEAVENLY BODY giving light to the earth.

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (Rev 21:23,24)

Just as all nations walk in the light of the sun today, they will "walk in the light of it (the New Jerusalem)" after there are no more sun, moon, or stars in the heavens.

This is NOT my opinion but Bible fact:
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev 21:1,2)

Did you notice the chronological sequence of events in this passage? First the New Heaven and the New Earth are established (which implies that all heavenly bodies we presently see have vanished away) and then we see the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven (but it does not say "out of heaven to earth").

Gen_8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

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Did you notice "while the earth remaineth"? So when there is a "new earth" this condition no longer applies, and it no longer remaineth as the old earth. All you have to do is read the Scriptures carefully.

The God that told me what i teach, has had many conversations with me over many years, NOT a short period of time. He told me more than anything "Love One Another" Everything He told me, NOTHING contradicts even one verse in all of Scriptures. He also told me stop sinning, stop obeying His enemy, to walk in the light and do not walk in darkness.

Tell me is satan divided against himself? Will satan tell a person to "Go and sin no more" like Jesus told a man and a woman to do? Would satan say over and over again to "Love One Another" which is what Jesus commanded us Christians to do?
Now would satan tell people that God does not speak to people any more? Would satan convince people that there are no more prophets today?

Any voice that you hear that contradicts even one verse in Scriptures is an evil voice, is not of God, and you should not hearken to it. In my conversations with God, NOTHING He ever said to me contradicts even ONE verse in all of Scriptures, which is the ONLY means to try the spirits to see if they are TRUE or not true. A lying spirit will tell you something contrary to the Word of God. The conversations that i have had with God, there were no lies, but all right with the Bible. And many things God told me that are not in the Bible that we have today as well. For example God told me, the 144,000 chosen of God are children that make it through the 7 year Tribulation Period. He told me that the antichrist one day will say "Where is your god now?" which will cause a Great Falling Away, NOT only of the Christian Faith, but all Faiths of the entire world will fall away from the belief of a God. And many more things He told, most of which i teach. He also plainly told me, and it turned out to be absolutely True, is that what i teach this generation they will not hear it, but will reject it. i even asked me, when He told me that, Why even tell them then, if you already know they will not hear it? He then plainly told me "So they will have no cloak for their sins, and will not be able to stand before me and plead ignorance, that they did not know" i therefore tell you the TRUTH "Go and sin no more", "Love One Another" as you are commanded by Jesus Christ to do. Will you hear what God told me and do it, or will you reject it and say some other god told me that? i already know what this generation will choose, God told me it would choose that way.

you believe the god you listen to, and i will believe and obey the God that i listen to. It's called free will choice.

That is what your god has told you huh? Scriptures does not teach that. God never said that. The Apostles never said that. So where does that teaching come from? That is the question.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

The above verse says nothing about the Holy City giving light to the EARTH, that is what you are saying and Scriptures does not say that. Read all of Rev 21, not just verses 23 and 24. Revelation 21 is a description of the Holy City and the INSIDES of it. There is no temple INSIDE the Holy City because Jesus is the Temple. There is no need for daylight INSIDE the Holy City because Jesus is the Light INSIDE the City. Saying that Revelation 21 is referring to the EARTH is YOUR OPINION and it is wrong and not Scriptural.

Nehemiah6 said:

Just as all nations walk in the light of the sun today, they will "walk in the light of it (the New Jerusalem)" after there are no more sun, moon, or stars in the heavens.

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More opinions i see. Where in all of Scriptures does it teach there will be no more Sun? Nowhere is the answer. Where in Scriptures does it teach there will be no more moon? Nowhere is the correct answer. Where in Scriptures does it teach there will be no more stars? Nowhere is, again the answer. So if Scriptures does not teach that doctrine, where do you get your information from? Where do you get the idea that there are no more sun, moon, and stars. NOT from any Scriptures i assure you that. Nations will walk in the light of it, because nations will be able to walk INSIDE of the Holy City.



What i plainly noticed is your interpretation being added to this verse to make a claim that it is in chronological sequence. When all the verse is doing is telling us what John was actually seeing in a single moment in time. The Apostle John saw a particular DAY, when He say the Holy City coming down out of Heaven to the EARTH. ON that particular DAY that he saw, it was during a time that He saw a New Heaven and a New Earth. Also on that Day he noticed there were no more seas on the EARTH. This is what the Apostle John saw on that DAY. But you say, because of your own interpretations, (Which you do not understand that interpretations belong to God and not to men) that the verse must be in some kind of chronological order. Which is in plain error. If we are to interpret that verse to be in chronological order than this is what we deduce.
New Heaven must be created First. Then the New Earth is created second. Then AFTER that the seas disappear AFTER the New Heaven and New Earth is created. And then the fourth thing is the Holy City comes down After all those three things are completed. THAT is a view to interpret that verse into chronological order.
1) New Heaven is created
2) New Earth is created
3) Seas all disappear
4) Holy City descends out of Heaven.

The obvious error here is. that the Apostle John saw this all on ONE DAY that He saw the vision. When the Apostle John saw the vision on that day the Holy City comes down to the Earth, New Heaven and New Earth was being created, that is what he saw. no more seas was there too, on that Day the Apostle John saw the vision.

Rev 21:1 And I saw (on a particular DAY that God showed him) a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So with no interpretation needed, we know for sure that by the Apostle Johns testimony, that the day the Holy City comes down out of Heaven, will be the time of the New Heaven and the New Earth and during the time when there are no more seas. That is the absolute TRUTH. To say and teach that the New Heaven and New Earth and no more seas, happens Way before the Holy City coming down out of Heaven, is in fact just an opinion, a man's interpretation of what men think is suppose to happen, solely based on mens interpretation and not based on what the Word of God actually says.

The Holy City comes down out of Heaven during the time of "New Heaven and New Earth" That is the TRUTH. To say the Holy City comes down AFTER or Before the time of the "New Heaven and New Earth" is indeed an opinion based on man's interpretations of the Word of God, which thing they should not do, because interpretations belong to God NOT TO MEN!

Nehemiah6 said:

First the New Heaven and the New Earth are established (which implies that all heavenly bodies we presently see have vanished away)

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lol, a perfect example of private interpretation. You personally interpret and teach what YOU THINK the verse implies, therefore because you think and interpret that verse as you see fit, that means all heavenly bodies will vanish away, which is contrary to sound doctrine which plainly teaches day and night shall not cease.

Psa_89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Scriptures plainly teaches the moon will be forever. What do you teach, that the moon is gone? Should i believe you over Scriptures? God forbid.

Isa_24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

So Scriptures teach during the reign of Jesus Christ out of mount Zion, ON EARTH, the sun and moon are still here, NOT GONE.

Isa_66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Yet another verse which plainly teaches the Sun and Moon are still here during a time when Jesus reigns ON EARTH.

Rev_21:23 And the city (NOT the Earth like you are teaching) had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine IN IT (notice, did not say Earth): for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Nehemiah6 said:

and then we see the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven (but it does not say "out of heaven to earth").

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So Jesus &Saints reign on Earth out of Mount Zion, but not in the Holy City according to you? Is that what your are saying. That Jesus reigns over all the nations of the Earth just standing in Mount Zion?

People The Holy City Jerusalem descends out of Heaven, the very place that Jesus took off to make for us over 2,000 years ago. It comes down to the Earth, and lands over where present Jerusalem is now, Jesus and we Saints reign over the entire Earth out of the Holy City Jerusalem. Do not believe anyone person who teaches something that is contrary to Scriptures. Is anyone teaches something contrary to Scriptures, then that person is devoid of the TRUTH, and you should not hearken to such a person at all, because if they had TRUTH, they would not be teaching ANYTHING that is contrary to any Scriptures.

We reign with Jesus ON Earth for a thousand years says Scriptures.

Rev_20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

He reigns out of Mount Zion, says

Isa_24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Mic_4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

WHERE? Where does the Lord Reign over them FOREVER? Mount Zion, ON EARTH.

People wake up from sleeping, believe what the Scriptures teach, NOT what men teach. Become as children and believe the Scriptures, do not become learned and believe men's interpretations based on their own understanding and their finite minds.

So Jesus & Saints reign ON EARTH out of Mount Zion forever, says Scriptures, And You think we don't do that out of the Holy City, the very place that Jesus Himself said He was going to prepare for us?

continued in next post:

continued:


i have read/heard the entire Bible over 85 times in my life, and i know what you are teaching here is contrary to Scriptures, but are solely based on your own interpretations based from your own intellect. What you teach comes from man. What i teach comes from God, and does not come from me nor from my own mind, nor from my own interpretations, nor from my own belief, my own understanding. i teach what He told me, and none of what He told me is contrary to Scriptures. You teach there are no more Heavenly bodies, which thing Scriptures does NOT teach, but in Truth is contrary to sound Scriptures, which plainly teach the moon will be forever, and day and night will never cease and many other such verses which is contrary to what you are teaching here.


Do the Godly thing, and change what you believe to line up with what Scriptures teach, Do not do what this generation LOVES to do continually, and that is to change Scriptures to fit into your beliefs. If Scriptures plainly teaches that the day and night shall never cease, and that the moon is forever, then you should not teach nor believe that the Heavenly bodies are gone, which teaching is contrary to Scriptures. Believe the Word of God, not what men teach or believe.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Another question for the Rapturist

1 THES. 4 [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Will Job be amoung the dead in Christ who will be “changed” at the 1Cor.15 event?

1 CORINTHIANS 10[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all OUR FATHERS were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they DRANK OF THAT SPIRITUAL ROCK that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

Yes, according to scripture

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Job says after the heavens be no more, then shall his "change" come

2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord. Which occurs {according to scripture} after the great tribulation

ISAIAH 34 [2] For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[3] Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[4] And all the host of HEAVEN SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the heavens shall be rolled together AS A SCROLL: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. [8] For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

So scripture proves Job will be changed {in the twinkling of an eye} after the tribulation period on the Day of the Lord. So why wasnt he invited to the rapture Darby invented?

Job didn't know the devil was attacking him and all he owned.
Some things have to be put in context.
There is no smoking gun.
Obscure verses to not make the pretrb rapture verses disappear.

Didnt even know there was obscure verses in the Word

"IN WHICH" (2Pet3:1-12) needs to be viewed alongside a couple of other passages:

--Isaiah 34-35 (both chapters, rather than just 34:4 wrenched from its context)

--Acts 17:31nasb "because He has fixed [set, established] A DAY [not 24-hrs] IN WHICH He will judge the world in righteousness, by/in a Man whom He has appointed..." (this "Day" is a much longer TIME PERIOD than the mere 24-hr day of His "return" to the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth; it also involves the time when Jesus [will] "STANDS to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Lam2:3-4 (paralleling 2Th2:7-8a); Rev4-5; etc] and continues throughout the entire promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [Rev19:15b being merely one verse regarding this; Isa24:21-23 paralleling Rev19:19/16:14-16 and what follows from there])

--consider also Job 19:23-27 -

23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at/in the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Just like Daniel was told he would be "resurrected" AT THE END OF THE DAYS [the end of the days in that context, Dan12], all OT saints will be "resurrected" [that is, to stand again on the earth] at the END of the tribulation period FOR the promised and prophesied earthly MK. This was no mystery. Even Martha well-knew of this.

1Cor15:23 states "[re: resurrection] but every man [/each] IN HIS OWN ORDER," which means there is a SEQUENCE to it, and not that there remains only a singular resurrection.

1Cor15:53b (re: "this mortality" [that is, THE STILL-LIVING portion]) correlates with what is spelled out in 2Cor5:3-4 (re: "that mortality" might be swallowed up of LIFE... Here, Paul is only addressing THE STILL-LIVING at the time of our "change" [i.e. at the Rapture], though both the dead IN Christ, as well as the "we which are ALIVE and remain" will be CAUGHT UP "together" [AS ONE, that is, AS ONE BODY... for the Rapture pertains solely to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" not to all other saints of all other time periods]).

Now you do.
Jesus did it in the parables.

Mostly correct
The dead in christ resurrect and then are raptured. Us alive ones follow immeditely.
Daniel resurrected with the patriarchs at Jesus resurrection.
They are the first fruits. We are the main harvest followed by those in rev 14. (Jews gathered)
Harvest is 4 parts (leviticus)

Well, we will disagree, because (as I said) the text in Daniel 12:13 says [to Daniel], "But go thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest [that is, in death], and stand in thy lot [that is, be physically/bodily resurrected to stand again on the earth] at the end of the days [that is, at the end of the days referred to in that context (vv.1,6-7), which parallels other passages such as Dan7:25[27] and Rev12:6,14, time-wise]".

Those "many" who resurrected when Jesus did (Matt27:53) went into the holy city [a type of future earthly events] and appeared to many... not where you might suggest they did.

I believe there are 3 Harvests, not just one as you do.

Job's body has returned to the dust of the earth, but his spirit is in the presence of the Lord. When the resurrection takes place, Job, along with the rest of the faithful, will rise, their bodies being reanimated and their spirits being reunited with their resurrected bodies. I lean towards the OT saints being resurrected at the same time as the great tribulation saints, which takes place after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

1 CORINTHIANS 10[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all OUR FATHERS were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they DRANK OF THAT SPIRITUAL ROCK that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

Yes, according to scripture

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Job says after the heavens be no more, then shall his "change" come[/quote]

Well, we know from scripture that this in not true, for Christ who is the first fruits of those who rise from the dead has already taken place. Consider the following scriptures:

"And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery —just as I have received authority from My Father."

"The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

The first scripture is a promise found in the church of Thyatira and to all believers who are victorious throughout the entire church period, which reveals that those who are victorious will be given authority over the nations, which would be referring to this present earth during the millennial kingdom.

The second scripture, is referring to those great tribulation saints who will have been killed during the great tribulation and who at that time will be resurrected and who will also be priest of God and of Christ and who will reign with Him during that thousand years, which takes place prior to the heavens being no more.

This present heaven and earth do not pass away until after the millennial period at the on-set of the great whit throne judgment:

"Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from His presence, and no place was found for them."

After the great white throne judgment, John records the following:

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Only those who are living at the time when the Lord descends from heaven, will changed in the twinkling of an eye and that because they will still be alive at the time when the resurrection takes place. Job will be among the resurrected, not those who are living and transformed.

Also, Darby did not invent the event of the gathering of the church, for we can read about it for ourselves in John 14:1-3, I Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53. The controversy has always been when this event will take place. The gathering of the church is the next event to take place which is imminent, i.e. can happen at any time. In order for both the church and the great tribulation saints to rule with Christ during the millennial kingdom, the resurrection and the living being changed must take place prior to the destruction of this present heaven and earth.

edit: My post should have had the reference "2Pet3:10-12" (I dropped the "0" somehow )

Jobs tellin the truth

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Like i said Jobs right. He says his change will come on the Day of the Lord and 1Thes.4 is descibing the Day of the Lord. Quite simple. No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period. Sorry guys

How many general resurrections are yet to come?

DiscipleDave said,
When people talk like that red flags should go up. I avoid anyone who speaks in that manner. It's called spiritual arrogance.

I hear ya Dudley

For centuries that was the central belief of the Church. It's the pre-trib camp that perverted it and changed it to the entire tribulation period. The only reason they did is because they had to otherwise it exposed a major contradiction. Rather than accept the truth, they just fabricate more stuff and pervert God's word.

To all u Rapturist

1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

ISAIAH 25 [6] And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.[7] And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.[8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; AND THE LORD GOD WILL WIPE AWAY TEARS FROM OFF ALL FACES; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said in that day, Lo, THIS IS OUR GOD; WE HAVE WAITED FOR HIM, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

I think ill wait right here for Him