Not By Works

learning something new every day

and it does make sense, the reflection can be as bright as sunlight, it's boils down to people applying science

to receive God's love, we must love God first

to love God, we need to receive God's love

so, which comes first?

to receive God's love, we must love God first

to love God, we need to receive God's love

so, which comes first?

I'm not sure if you've all notice this about BDF debating, but it ultimately boils down to this ...

wrong interpretation debating against the right interpretation, where the wrong-interpreter insist on being right

I could start another thread about wrong interpreter insisting on being right, but what's the point of that, since the result will ultimately be one more thread that will only capture this kind of problem and spread and magnify it more

and please understanding that I'm speaking generalistically, and incase of any misunderstanding, please speak up, I'll try to clarify to the best of my ability.

It is not a common thing or am I misunderstanding your point? <-- you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say, maybe I need to practice my communication skill better, but it's far too common to see how work-salvationist accuse the saved of abusing grace, which seems like a commonly believed accusations among the work-salvationist

Well, I see wrong interpretation debating wrong interpretation more often than not.

The organisation reports a worldwide membership of over 1.7 million,[2] consisting of soldiers, officers and adherents collectively known as Salvationists. Its founders Catherine and William Booth sought to bring salvation to the poor, destitute, and hungry by meeting both their "physical and spiritual needs". It is present in 131 countries,[3] running charity shops, operating shelters for the homeless and disaster relief and humanitarian aid to developing countries.

The theology of the Salvation Army is derived from that of Methodism, although it is distinctive in institution and practice. It does not celebrate the rite of Baptism and Holy Communion. The Army's doctrine is typical of holiness churches in the Wesleyan-Arminian tradition. The Army's purposes are "the advancement of the Christian religion ... of education, the relief of poverty, and other charitable objects beneficial to society or the community of mankind as a whole".[4]

The Army was founded in 1865 in London by one-time Methodist circuit-preacher William Booth and his wife Catherine as the East London Christian Mission, and can trace its origins to the Blind Beggar tavern. In 1878 Booth reorganised the mission, becoming its first General and introducing the military structure which has been retained to the present day.[5] The current international leader of The Salvation Army and chief executive officer (CEO) is General Brian Peddle, who was elected by the High Council of The Salvation Army on 3 August 2018.[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salvation_Army

The Holy Universal Church? Is that code for RCC! Otherwise there's no such thing!

The Holy Universal Church
The Protestant reformers understood themselves to be a part of “the holy catholic church.” Millions of Protestants still repeat these words every week as they stand in worship to recite the Apostles' Creed. The word catholic was first used in this sense in the early second century when Ignatius of Antioch declared, “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church.” Jesus Christ is the head of the church, as well as its Lord. Protestant believers in the tradition of the Reformation understand the church to be the body of Christ extended throughout time as well as space, the whole company of God's redeemed people through the ages.

Protestants, of course, do not equate “catholic” with “Roman Catholic.” To avoid this misunderstanding, some prefer to say “holy Christian church.” While there is nothing wrong with this term, we should not be embarrassed by the older wording. The word catholic simply means “general, universal, concerning the whole.” Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one, even as he and the Father are one, so that the world might believe. I think it is right to pray and work for the “full visible unity” of Christ's church on earth which we know for sure will be completely realized when Jesus comes again. When we say that we “believe in the holy catholic church,” we are confessing that Jesus Christ himself is the church's one foundation, that all who truly trust in him as Savior and Lord are by God's grace members of this church, and that the gates of hell shall never prevail against it.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/h...testant-churches-mean-when-they-recite-i.html

So another question: How does baptism play into your beliefs?

I am going to assume you mean water baptism. Water baptism is something we do to identify with Christ's death burial and resurrection.
The Church should baptize people immediately as was the case in the past, that would end a lot of the anxiety some people have when procrastinating about getting baptized. Example:

Acts 16:30-33
Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Few things I want to point out: Notice that what they must do to be saved at this time is BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and then following that he was baptized.
There are other examples as well. But I do acknowledge that verses like Acts 2:38 are used by some (like the church of Christ) who believe in baptismal renegeration. I understand their argument from that and some other verses, however I believe if we look at the total overall testimony of Scripture, we can conclude that faith saves.
Colossians 2:11-12 links baptism to circumcision in the Abrahamic covenant, and we must remember Abraham was justified through faith prior to being circumcised. It was a sign of the covenant, just like today baptism is something we do to identify with the death, burial and resurrection.

Baptism is a work of righteousness:
Matthew 3:15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

We are not saved by our works of righteousness:
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

In comparing circumcision of the O.T. to the baptism of the N.T. I quote Matt Slick from CARM :

" At the same time, we must understand that circumcision did not guarantee salvation to those who received it. It was a rite meant only for the people of God, who were born into the family of God (who were then the Jews). It was an outward sign of the covenant promise. To reject it was to reject the covenant, but accepting it did not guarantee salvation."

I hope this response has been helpful. If you have questions feel free to ask. Also make sure to be a good berean and check from the scriptures if the things told to you by me or anyone else here are so!

H....,
You partially deal with scriptures, in a left handed way, which requires baptism as part of the sin cleansing process...but, not all....why?

The Bible clearly requires water baptism and is not negated by it not being repeated when any other element of repentance is noted.

Faith, trust, repentance, baptism, righteousness, etc is all part of the plan of action for repentance/forgiveness....... and one portion can not be neglected.

The Holy Universal Church


You might want to read this first:

I don't know 'bout you, but Jesus gave his life for me long before I ever cared about him. Thank you Jesus.

We are going offtopic here, so I will create a new topic from this response HERE and I will be happy to interact in a more lengthy manner there. I invite you and all others interested in this topic to join in!

*Link might not work until soon, awaiting approval it says, so stay tuned* EDIT: Should work now

Now that the READERS have heard the Sensationalized version of the History of the Salvation Army, reminiscent of the Fake News Media. Maybe the READERS would like to Here the Rest of the Story.

That can be even more confusing, esp. to former Catholics who were (and we dispute it) taught that Simon-Peter was the founder of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. and before Vatican 2 that all real Christians are roman catholics. The rest are going to hell It's kind of like when the Pope lifted the ban on eating meat on Friday. or allowed non latin masses. Many asked to themselves, 'Did God change his mind" but it was considered a sin to doubt or question the Pope. What's next, allowing birth control? Please don't be mistaken. I love catholics, (small 'c') I despise the Vatican. Jesus died for catholics too.

View attachment 188083 .
Rehabilitate them teach them about salvation by grace first, faith next and last but not least works but OSAS always.