Where do believers go after death?

Deade · Sep 14, 2018

Okay PennEd, let's look at another instance of Strong's #3706:

Rev. 9:17 "And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone."

This looks to me like tanks, or at the least something mechanical. If I am not wrong they did not exist around 95 AD. The same kind of vision as the transfiguration.

Magenta · Sep 14, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

You are compelled to reject it as a parable since you prefer to dishonor God and to profane His holy name with your feckless heresies, which do not change the fact that the wicked are destroyed and PERISH, as stated over and over and over and over again in a multitude of ways throughout Scripture, right from Genesis to Revelation.

"That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Job 21:30.

"Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them." Psalms 21:9.

"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Psalms 37:10.

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20.

"But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalms 37:38.

"As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God." Psalms 68:2.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD." Psalms 104:35.

"The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalms 145:20.

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee." Ezekiel 28:18.

"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:19.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11.

"What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry." Nahum 1:9-10.

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:" Matthew 7:13

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28.

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 1:7. That fire does NOT still burn.

"And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." Malachi 4:3.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:46.

The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting. Nowhere
in Scripture will you find that the wicked will receive eternal life, only the righteous.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. The wicked perish.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23.

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;" Hebrews 2:14.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Revelation 20:14.

You have to say death means life to support your heretical view.

You promote the lie of Satan at the heart of the fall of all creation:

"Thou shalt not surely die."

prove-all · Sep 14, 2018

present or absent with the Lord ?

earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house which is [from] heaven:

-
2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved,
we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.

-Paul uses the tabernacle to represent our earthly house/body which will be
dissolved/mortal. but we have a building form God a house not made with hands,
eternal/immortal, in the heavens.

why is Paul saying this? The context from the prior chapter will help:

2Co 4:16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying,
yet our inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is for
the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;

while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

-Our outward man/tabernacle/body is decaying it is mortal but we have faith
in the things that are eternal. What is this in relation to? when will this be?

2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus
shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

-So Paul faints not because of the Grace God gives and the promise that
this corrupt outward mortal man will be raised to eternal life just as Jesus was.

So again Paul says:

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house
which is [from] heaven: 2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

-We want that clothing that is from heaven. what clothing?

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that
we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

-mortality might put on life or immortality in other words.

Remember Paul has already connected the Resurrection with this in chapter 4.
but lets make it clear before we go on in the chapter:

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;
it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on
immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and
this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying
that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

-This all takes place at the last trump at the coming of Christ. when our
mortal bodies are clothed in immortality changed in the twinkling of an eye.

-What does Paul mean we shall not all sleep and the last trump?

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them
which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive
and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

-So the last Trump is at the second coming of Jesus, and we shall not all sleep
but some will still be alive and remain. Those who sleep are resurrected at this time.

So lets go back to the texts in question:

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are
at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

-So through the earnestness of the Spirit they walk by faith not by sight,
in this earthly body and are absent from the Lord. because they are here
on earth and the judgment has not yet come. but:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.

-They are willing or want to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
Contextually we have seen this happens at the resurrection not instantly.

Paul does not say or even infer that this is instantaneous at all. He simply says
he would like to be out of this mortal body and to be present with the Lord.
He does not even say that one equals the other but rather he wants to with the Lord.

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Notice that he says, "present or absent" we may be accepted of him.
If being absent means He is already with the Lord then
how is it that the absent still hopes to be accepted of him?

Paul is simply saying that they labour in life by faith in this mortal body.
and the works that they do will follow them even in death/absent.

As it is written:

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write,
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the
Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to
that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment:

Lillywolf · Sep 14, 2018

Ecclesiastes 12:7 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
7 And dust return to the earth as it was, and the [a]spirit return to God that gave it.

Footnotes:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 The soul incontinently goeth either to joy or torment, and sleepeth not as the wicked imagine.

prove-all · Sep 14, 2018

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

this is the spirit of man, everyone has one.
This shows proof all go back to God.

Not one goes to the third Heaven where God dwells,
and another person thrown in burning hell.

But all

You could say a recording of your life returns to God, but without you're body it
knows nothing and it's not immortal or alive by itself - having no body means it
has no ears or mouth or eyes to see, or physical brain.

JohnRH · Sep 14, 2018

Magenta said:

You're misquoting me. I said that there's no literal history attached to the characters in the parables, not the parables themselves. Learn to read.

"The characters in the parables are unnamed, were never mentioned before in the Bible, and never get mentioned again. They have no literal history attached to them".

Magenta · Sep 14, 2018

JohnRH said:

That is not what you said, sorry. The "they" in your stand-alone sentence could have been indicating the characters, or the parables themselves. Better sentence structure from you would have helped me to read the sentence the way you intended. Your desire to insult is an ad hom, and what people resort to when they are losing an argument. Case in point? "Learn how to read."

Ad hominem attacks are a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

Lillywolf · Sep 14, 2018

JohnRH said:

Magenta said:

Good post Magenta.
Unfortunately, attack and ad hom's crop up far too often in discussion forums. When they appear in Christian discussion forums where the Bible is being discussed it is worse. People become offensive defending their understanding of God's words to the world he gave his son's life to save.

Noose · Sep 15, 2018

prove-all said:

Please tell me it was a mistake and you are working on the review.
Your heading screams parable, but your explanation points to something else. You fail at multiple levels:

1. Your explanation doesn't sound like a parable. You are explaining what actually happened more like an eye witness.
2. You have a parable within the parable- something unheard of; things like an angel carrying Lazarus from Abraham's bossom through the air to some other location are not biblical.
3. A parable usually has its ending when Jesus ends the story because we can draw a particular lesson from the story; your parable is still continuing to the end of age when Abraham will awake from sleep apparently and find people at his bossom.

When Abraham died, in whose bossom did he go to?

Noose · Sep 15, 2018

prove-all said:

From what you are expecting, it is never going to happen but if you are willing to change your mind, then it is happeneing:

Eph 2:19 Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord.22 And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

Revelation 21:14
The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

JohnRH · Sep 15, 2018

prove-all said:

The Fate of the Rich Man

Jesus said of him: " . . . rich man also died, and was buried." (Luke 16:22.) Jesus did
not say the rich man was taken immediately at that time to an eternally burning hell.

Jesus said of him: " . . . the rich man also died, and was buried." (Luke 16:22.)
And "hades" means THE GRAVE--a place of BURIAL in the ground!

In the next verse, Jesus said, "And in hell he lifted up his eyes." (v. 23.)
And in this hell he "lifted up his eyes." His eyes had been closed, in death,
and now there came a time when they opened--he "lifted up his eyes!"

Jesus, too, died and was buried. And in "hell" He, too, lifted up His eyes--
WHEN HE WAS RESURRECTED!
-

Daniel speaks of the resurrection of the just, and of the unjust: "And many of them
that sleep (their eyes closed) in the dust of the earth (their graves-- buried--in "hades"),
shall awake (lift up their eyes) some to everlasting life, and some to shame and
everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2.)
-

Jesus said: " . . . the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves (the original Greek
word Jesus used is "hades") shall hear His voice, and shall come forth: they that have done
good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil (including the rich man),
unto the RESURRECTION of judgment." (John 5:28-29.)

-
In Rev. 20:4 we read of the resurrection of those in Christ at His coming. But Rev. 20:5
says: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."
So the resurrection of the rich man and all the unjust or unsaved will take place after the
millennium! It is pictured and described in Rev. 20:11-12.
-

So, while Jesus in speaking about the rich man and Lazarus did not say when the rich man
will open his eyes and be resurrected out of his grave, other Scriptures do reveal that it will
be after the millennium!

He is resurrected MORTAL, just as he was before he died--not immortal like Lazarus!

Now, opening his eyes in his grave, this rich man SEES Abraham, and Lazarus in his "bosom"
-- his embrace! Yes, Jesus told the Pharisees that they would SEE Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
in the Kingdom and they themselves thrust out! This rich man sees them! He also sees this
awful flame of fire -- this LAKE OF FIRE which is about to destroy him forever! He is terrified!

Scripture everywhere describes the final fate of the wicked as being burned up by fire.
It is this "lake of fire," which is "the second death," from which there shall be no resurrection!
The PUNISHMENT is death by fire! They remain forever DEAD!

He said to these same Pharisees: "Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity. There shall be
weeping and gnashing of teeth, They are to be THRUST OUT--into the LAKE OF FIRE
which shall consume them, leaving them neither root nor branch, as the Scriptures say!

This rich man cried out for help because of his mental and physical anguish--
KNOWING what was now to befall him!
-

The gulf mentioned by Abraham which prevents the wicked from escaping death by hell-fire,
and which also keeps the righteous from being burned, is immortality. Those who are immortal
shall never die because they are born of God. (Rev. 20:6). But human beings who have not been
begotten and born by the Spirit of God are still flesh, subject to corruption and death.

They can be burned by fire.

Only the saved possess immortality as the gift of God (Rom. 2:7), but the wicked reap anguish
and wrath that shall devour the adversary--fiery indignation (Heb. 10:27). What happens when
a human body is being burned by a flame?

There is a period of torture during which the fire consumes the body before the person dies.
Jesus didn't say he was immortal, for if he were he would be spirit and flames do not burn spirit.

Fire is a physical process. It is combustion of matter.

Matthew 13:30 speaks of the wicked being gathered into bundles to be burned. What happens to
tares (weeds) when in fire? They burn up! Again in Matthew 3:12, John warned the Pharisees that
they would be burned up as chaff if they didn't repent. They are to be burned with unquenchable
fire, too. A fire so hot that no amount of water put on it could put it out, because the flames would
turn the water to steam.

When God punishes the wicked the fire will be unquenchable! But that doesn't say it won't burn
itself out when it has nothing more to burn. An unquenchable fire can't be put out, but it can burn
itself out when it has consumed everything.

Malachi 4:1,3 speaks of this fire that will burn the rich man: "For, behold, the day cometh, that
shall burn as an oven; and all t he proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the
day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root
nor branch. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be [ashes] under the soles of your
feet in the day that I shall do this."

That is the end of the wicked! They shall perish and not be any more.
"Into smoke shall they consume away." (Psalm 37:20).

The rich man then, being mortal flesh, is going to burn up after being tormented
in the flame. He is going to die the second death . (Rev. 20:14).
The wages of sin is death, not endless torment. (Rom. 6:23).

This death is for ALL ETERNITY-- ETERNAL PUNISHMENT--but is not eternal punishing!

-

The rich man at last realized he was DOOMED! He now comprehended the gulf that existed
between him and those who had been made immortal. Abraham had made clear the utter
impossibility of the rich man crossing that gulf into immortality.

He gave one last cry to Abraham, begging him to send Lazarus to his father s house to plead
with his brothers, lest they come to his terrible fate. Abraham replied they had the writings of
Moses and the prophets. But the rich man realized they would not hear these Scriptures.

"Nay, Father Abraham," he screamed, "but if one went unto them from the dead they will repent!"

The rich man knew Lazarus was RAISED FROM THE DEAD! This one statement proves that
the whole experience of Lazarus and the rich man was given by Jesus to SHOW THE TRUTH
OF THE RESURRECTION--not to teach any immediate going to "heaven" or "hell" at the
instant of death.

Abraham replied, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded,
though one ROSE from the dead." (verse 31).

In plain language! The experience of Lazarus and the rich man shows the RESURRECTION
from the dead--not an instantaneous going to "heaven" or "hell." It is a resurrection from
THE DEAD--not from life. It shows MORTALITY which dies, and is DEAD not immortality
which never loses consciousness and lives forever in an eternal punishing of the imaginary "hell."

Jesus was preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God--the NEW Testament Gospel.
He was showing salvation, the resurrection to eternal LIFE as the gift of God--
inheritance of the Kingdom of God on this earth.

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

In your scenario the 5 brothers would already be in this place of torment at the same time the rich man was; because you're placing the story at the resurrection of the unjust. But the story says they're at his father's house and that they're not dead. So your 3,000+ years fast-forward doesn't work.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

In your scenario they had Moses and the prophets 3,000+ years ago and now it's too late for them to hear them. But Abraham says they have them. Moses and the prophets can't help the 5 brothers at the resurrection of the unjust. Furthermore Lazarus would have already been resurrected a thousand years before the rich man, so he couldn't rise "from the dead" to go to the brothers. But in this story Moses and the prophets CAN help the 5 brothers.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

In your scenario there's no possibility that they would hear and be persuaded because the opportunity disappeared 3,000+ years ago. Abraham speaks of them as still living and having an opportunity for salvation. Your interpretation is wrong.

Absent from the body = present with the Lord. The Lord is in heaven. Ergo, when a saved person dies he goes immediately to heaven.
When an unsaved person dies they go immediately to hell, a place of torment, as this story bears out.

JohnRH · Sep 15, 2018

Magenta said:

i shall now give the answers to what were my rhetorical questions:

Outside of the parable, what does the Bible tell us about the sower who sowed seed in the 4 types of soil? Nothing.
Outside of the parable, what does the Bible tell us about the woman who hid the leaven in three measures of meal? Nothing.
Outside of the parable, what does the Bible tell us about the prodigal son? Nothing.
Outside of the parable, what does the Bible tell us about the good Samaritan? Nothing.
Outside of the parable, what does the Bible tell us about the man who found the treasure buried in the field? Nothing.
Outside of the parable, what does the Bible tell us about the man who left the 99 sheep to find the 1 lost sheep? Nothing.

Compare with this one:
Outside of the story in Luke 16, what does the Bible tell us about Abraham? Lots. Oodles. A bunch.

The characters in the parables are unnamed, were never mentioned before in the Bible, and never get mentioned again. They have no literal history attached to them.
Abraham, on the other hand, is named, is mentioned before Luke 16, and gets mentioned after Luke 16. He has literal history attached to him.

Savvy?

prove-all · Sep 15, 2018

Rev. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom,
and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Noose said:

So you are saying you do not believe in the mill. reign of Christ on earth?

Why did Jesus, during His earthly ministry, instructed His disciples to pray,
“Thy kingdom come” ? (Matthew 6:10)

Scripture teems with promises of this future event.
Yet most people treat Christ’s return to earth as a myth.

Promises about Christ coming to Earth fill the Old Testament beginning to end,
Genesis to Malachi. God will fulfill all the promises and prophecies of Christ’s
Second Coming. God does not lie. When He speaks, He fulfills His word (Num 23:19).

When He comes a second time, He will kick Satan off of his throne
and assume His rightful position as King of kings and Lord of lords!

Isaiah 2 clearly describes a time that has not yet happened, when, “in the last days …
all nations shall flow” into Jerusalem and asked to be taught God’s law—a time when
“[t]he lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of man shall be bowed
down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day” (verse 11).

Verse 12 describes what it calls the “day of the Lord,” a day of warfare in which God corrects
the nations! References to the “day of the Lord” are found throughout the Old Testament, in
the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Zechariah and Malachi.

This is a day when people will hide for fear of the great God “and for the glory of his majesty,
when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth” (verse 19).

One of the most spectacular prophecies of Christ’s Second Coming and rule is Isaiah 9:6-7:
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given,” it says—a clear reference to His birth as
a human being. But it continues: “and the government shall be [future tense] upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father,
The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon
the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and
with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”

Prophecy shows that these very real, literal kingdoms will be destroyed and supplanted by another
real, literal kingdom: “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom,
which shall never be destroyed …” (verse 45).

Christ’s Kingdom is a real kingdom—and it is about to be established on earth!

“And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and
languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

Throughout His ministry, Christ Himself repeatedly made plain that a time would come when
He would appear not as a mere man, but as a glorified, powerful spirit being—not to die as
a sacrificial lamb, but to rule as a King!

“[T]he Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall
reward every man according to his works,” He said (Matthew 16:27).

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the
regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon
twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28).

He was describing regeneration for the whole world and a future government
of which men [saints]will be resurrected to positions of kingship!

“In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,
and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 14:2-3).

Jesus promised the disciples He would return to earth in all His glory!
The Olivet prophecy, Christ put His Second Coming into a time frame: He gave
specific signs that would occur just beforehand (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21).

Christ described His actual return this way: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east,
and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. …
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of
the earth … see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”
(Matthew 24:27, 30).

His whole ministry was devoted to announcing and proclaiming
the future Kingdom He will establish on earth!

MattforJesus · Sep 15, 2018

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit goes back to God regardless if people accept the truth or not, so the spirit is not part of anybody in the afterlife.

The flesh goes back to the dust of the earth.

The soul lives on forever.

In the Old Testament they slept because Jesus did not shed His blood yet to take away their sins completely so they could rise to be with Him.

After Jesus resurrected then the saints that die in the Lord are with Him.

But the wicked sleep until after the millennial reign of Christ.

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To be absent from the Bible is to be present with the Lord.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This is before the saints that are alive are caught up to be with Jesus, for there is still live saints on earth, but there is dead saints according to the flesh with Jesus.

The girl that Jesus caused to come back alive slept because she could not go to be with Jesus in heaven, for He was not resurrected yet, and all the dead sleep.

Stephen saying Lord Jesus receive my spirit does not prove Stephen went to be with Jesus for the spirit is not a part of us when we die, so the spirit would not be truly Stephen going to be with Jesus, but it is our soul that goes to be with Jesus.

What does it mean to sleep then.

It could mean they have not received their glorified bodies yet, which the dead shall rise first which could mean they receive their glorified body, and then those alive meet them in the air which they would receive their glorified bodies.

But there are souls in heaven now, our true essence that will live forever of our design on earth, so how are they sleeping if their soul is in heaven, but it would make sense if they receive their glorified body later on and while they do not have it, it is termed as sleeping.

For there cannot be soul sleep if the souls are with Jesus before the live saints are caught up, and before Jesus puts down the world, and ends sin on earth.

And it cannot be spirit sleep for they go back to God when they die.

And it cannot be flesh sleep for it returns to the dust of the earth.

The Bible says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

It must mean if a saint dies according to the flesh, but has not received their glorified body it is considered they sleep, although their soul is in heaven with Jesus which can also communicate with Him as in the example of the saints asking Jesus when He would avenge them, and Jesus said when all the saints that are on earth are gathered unto Him.

So these souls are in heaven with Jesus while there is still live saints on earth, and He has not defeated the world yet.

Noose · Sep 15, 2018

prove-all said:

Here you go. Meditate upon these verses until you realize that Christ's second coming is not something that people will say "...look, here he is.." or "there he goes...". Christ comes as the kingdom of God which people can not say "..look, there it is...". The best way to describe His coming is; He is and was and is to come the Almighty- meaning that since 2000 years ago, He is coming when believers are added to the kingdom until the end of age when the kingdom will be the only thing standing.

Matt 16:28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Mark 9:1 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power.”

Luke 9:27 But I tell you truthfully, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Note; The kingdom of God coming and the son of man coming are used interchangeably because it is one and the same thing.
Here, more verses.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

John 16:16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”

Matt 26:64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”e

Jesus must have been a very bad communicator if he meant 2000 years when he used these words: soon/shortly/from now on/before long/you'll not reach all the towns in Israel/some standing here will not die.

I do believe in millennial rule.

prove-all · Sep 15, 2018

The physical kingdom is not of this [current age], but soon

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Thy Kingdom come

The living Christ is coming as “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Revelation 19:11-21),
to put down the rebellion of warring nations (Revelation 17:14), and establish God’s
world-ruling government over all nations (Daniel 2:44; 7:9, 13-14, 18, 22, 27; Isaiah 9:7).

He pictured Himself as the young nobleman going away (to heaven) to be coronated,
and to return to Earth (Luke 19:12-27). He will then be on the Earth—Zechariah 14:3-4,
1 Thessalonians 4:16. “If I go and prepare a place [position, office, habitation] for you,
I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also”

In vision, John saw the angels praising Christ at His coming to rule this Earth. They said,

“We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned” (Revelation 11:17)

The seventh angel sounds-Kingdoms of this current world become Christs (Rev 11:15)
-Will commit thy government into his hand, established with judgement and jutice.
a father to [the inhabitants] of Jerusalem,and to the house of Judah (Isaiah 22:21)

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of
David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice
from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:7)

Apostle John, in vision, saw a preview of the beginning of that rule and world government
“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them…and
they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4).(Isaiah 11:2-4)

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from
another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep[changed beings] from the goats[still mortals]:

Jesus said no one could see or enter into the Kingdom of God until he is born of God
(John 3:3-5). He made plain when one is born of God, he, just as God is, will be spirit.

We have now, as humans, been born of flesh—and therefore we are flesh. But God is
spirit (John 4:24), and when we are born of God—of the Spirit—we shall be spirit
(John 3:6-8). Now, we are earthy—of the earth (1?Corinthians 15:48). We are “flesh
and blood” from the earth—from matter (ver.50)—yet flesh and blood humans cannot
inherit the Kingdom of God . But, as we have borne the image of the earthy—mortal
—human—we shall, when born of God, bear the image of the heavenly—that is, spirit.

Jesus Christ is the firstborn of many brethren (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:18)
who shall be born of God by a “resurrection” (John 5:25-29; 6:39, 40, 44).

Jesus said: “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will
I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron…” (Rev 2:26-27).

And again, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne [on this Earth]”
(Revelation 3:21; Luke 1:32-33). And, “…we shall reign on the earth” (Revelation 5:10).

-A Kingdom appointed, made ruler over some cities.

And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;(Luke 22:29)
Some resurrected saints will rule over 10 cities, some over five (Luke 19:17-19)

-the meek shall inherit the earth
Matthew 5:5,Psalms 37:11, Psalms 22:26, 37:9, 22,29

Psalms 25:13 (KJV)
His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

8Thou didst cause judgment to be heard from heaven; the earth feared, and was still,
9When God arose to judgment, to save all the meek of the earth. Selah.
10Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

Noose · Sep 15, 2018

prove-all said:

The physical kingdom is not of this [current age], but soon

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Thy Kingdom come

The living Christ is coming as “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Revelation 19:11-21),
to put down the rebellion of warring nations (Revelation 17:14), and establish God’s
world-ruling government over all nations (Daniel 2:44; 7:9, 13-14, 18, 22, 27; Isaiah 9:7).

He pictured Himself as the young nobleman going away (to heaven) to be coronated,
and to return to Earth (Luke 19:12-27). He will then be on the Earth—Zechariah 14:3-4,
1 Thessalonians 4:16. “If I go and prepare a place [position, office, habitation] for you,
I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also”

In vision, John saw the angels praising Christ at His coming to rule this Earth. They said,

“We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned” (Revelation 11:17)

The seventh angel sounds-Kingdoms of this current world become Christs (Rev 11:15)
-Will commit thy government into his hand, established with judgement and jutice.
a father to [the inhabitants] of Jerusalem,and to the house of Judah (Isaiah 22:21)

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of
David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice
from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:7)

Apostle John, in vision, saw a preview of the beginning of that rule and world government
“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them…and
they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4).(Isaiah 11:2-4)

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from
another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep[changed beings] from the goats[still mortals]:

Jesus said no one could see or enter into the Kingdom of God until he is born of God
(John 3:3-5). He made plain when one is born of God, he, just as God is, will be spirit.

We have now, as humans, been born of flesh—and therefore we are flesh. But God is
spirit (John 4:24), and when we are born of God—of the Spirit—we shall be spirit
(John 3:6-8). Now, we are earthy—of the earth (1?Corinthians 15:48). We are “flesh
and blood” from the earth—from matter (ver.50)—yet flesh and blood humans cannot
inherit the Kingdom of God . But, as we have borne the image of the earthy—mortal
—human—we shall, when born of God, bear the image of the heavenly—that is, spirit.

Jesus Christ is the firstborn of many brethren (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:18)
who shall be born of God by a “resurrection” (John 5:25-29; 6:39, 40, 44).

Jesus said: “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will
I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron…” (Rev 2:26-27).

And again, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne [on this Earth]”
(Revelation 3:21; Luke 1:32-33). And, “…we shall reign on the earth” (Revelation 5:10).

-A Kingdom appointed, made ruler over some cities.

And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;(Luke 22:29)
Some resurrected saints will rule over 10 cities, some over five (Luke 19:17-19)

-the meek shall inherit the earth
Matthew 5:5,Psalms 37:11, Psalms 22:26, 37:9, 22,29

Psalms 25:13 (KJV)
His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

8Thou didst cause judgment to be heard from heaven; the earth feared, and was still,
9When God arose to judgment, to save all the meek of the earth. Selah.
10Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

You'll actually do good if you stop for a moment and listen to what other people are saying before you respond with the whole bible.

oldethennew · Sep 15, 2018

they are asleep beneath the altar of Yeshua, awaiting the day of Judgment...
read your Bible...

Lillywolf · Sep 15, 2018

oldethennew said:

It is your statement. It is up to you to provide the verse that supports it don't you think?

The fifth seal of Revelation 6 pertains to those martyred in the name of Christ. Not all who are in Christ and died.https://biblehub.com/revelation/6-9.htm

oldethennew · Sep 15, 2018

Lillywolf said:

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no little one, it is the voice/enlightenment of our Saviour, Jesus Christ, that He has given to us...

Where do believers go after death?

Called of God

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