Where do believers go after death?
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Now, when looking at the figurative language of Revelation, remember that God is not limited to our time frame. Many do not understand, so prophecy seems to contradict itself. Like when the saints are talking to God on how long He will wait to avenge them. God could be pulling the voices from the future. God can do anything. Remember when God, talking to Cain, said Abel's blood cried at Him from the ground? "And the Lord said unto Cain, where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And He said, what hast thou done? The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground" (Genesis 4:9, 10).
Now it gets interesting, remember what I told you about voices from the future. The white robes could also be in the future. The fifth seal: "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, how long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Revelation 6:9-11).
I am sorry I did not address your exact scriptures. I believe The prayers of the dead saints are talking to God in chapters 7 and 15 just as Abel's blood was talking to God. Remember God does not have our time constraints.
Now it gets interesting, remember what I told you about voices from the future. The white robes could also be in the future. The fifth seal: "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, how long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Revelation 6:9-11).
I am sorry I did not address your exact scriptures. I believe The prayers of the dead saints are talking to God in chapters 7 and 15 just as Abel's blood was talking to God. Remember God does not have our time constraints.
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Mark proves this is a parable when Jesus tell his disciples in Mark 4:11 (He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables). (From the NIV) Just before the parable of Lazarus Jesus told another parable which the Pharisees were listening to and after that parable he continued speaking about a few other teachings and then he told about Lazarus and he was still speaking to the Pharisees so he is still speaking to them in parables.
As we can see, the false teaching of Soul Sleep goes hand-in-hand with the even more false teaching of Annihilationism.
However, we can be thankful that only brainwashed cultists believe this nonsense.
Obviously you have no clue about the meaning of *perish* as used in Scripture.
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 622: ἀπόλλυμι
1. to destroy i. e. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to, ruin: Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; Luke 17:27, 29; Jude 1:5; τήν σοφίαν render useless, cause its emptiness to be perceived, 1 Corinthians 1:19 (from theSept. of Isaiah 29:14); to kill: Matthew 2:13; Matthew 12:14; Mark 9:22; Mark 11:18; John 10:10, etc.; contextually, to declare that one must be put to death: Matthew 27:20; metaphorically, to devote or give over to eternal misery: Matthew 10:28; James 4:12; contextually, by one's conduct to cause another to lose eternal salvation: Romans 14:15. Middle to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed;
a. of persons; (a). properly: Matthew 8:25; Luke 13:3, 5, 33; John 11:50; 2 Peter 3:6; Jude 1:11, etc.;ἀπόλλυμαι λιμῷ, Luke 15:17; ἐνμαχαρια, Matthew 26:52;καταβαλλόμενοι, ἀλλ' οὐκἀπολλύμενοι, 2 Corinthians 4:9. (b). tropically, to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery: John 3:15 (R Lbr.), ; (it must be borne in mind, that according to John's conception eternal life begins on earth, just as soon as one becomes united to Christ by faith); Romans 2:12;1 Corinthians 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:18;2 Peter 3:9. Hence, οἱ σῳζόμενοιthey to whom it belongs to partake of salvation, and οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι those to whom it belongs to perish or to be consigned to eternal misery, are contrasted by Paul: 1 Corinthians 1:18;2 Corinthians 2:15; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:10 (on these present participles, cf. Winers Grammar, 342 (321); Buttmann, 206 (178)).
However, we can be thankful that only brainwashed cultists believe this nonsense.
Obviously you have no clue about the meaning of *perish* as used in Scripture.
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 622: ἀπόλλυμι
1. to destroy i. e. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to, ruin: Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; Luke 17:27, 29; Jude 1:5; τήν σοφίαν render useless, cause its emptiness to be perceived, 1 Corinthians 1:19 (from theSept. of Isaiah 29:14); to kill: Matthew 2:13; Matthew 12:14; Mark 9:22; Mark 11:18; John 10:10, etc.; contextually, to declare that one must be put to death: Matthew 27:20; metaphorically, to devote or give over to eternal misery: Matthew 10:28; James 4:12; contextually, by one's conduct to cause another to lose eternal salvation: Romans 14:15. Middle to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed;
a. of persons; (a). properly: Matthew 8:25; Luke 13:3, 5, 33; John 11:50; 2 Peter 3:6; Jude 1:11, etc.;ἀπόλλυμαι λιμῷ, Luke 15:17; ἐνμαχαρια, Matthew 26:52;καταβαλλόμενοι, ἀλλ' οὐκἀπολλύμενοι, 2 Corinthians 4:9. (b). tropically, to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery: John 3:15 (R Lbr.), ; (it must be borne in mind, that according to John's conception eternal life begins on earth, just as soon as one becomes united to Christ by faith); Romans 2:12;1 Corinthians 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:18;2 Peter 3:9. Hence, οἱ σῳζόμενοιthey to whom it belongs to partake of salvation, and οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι those to whom it belongs to perish or to be consigned to eternal misery, are contrasted by Paul: 1 Corinthians 1:18;2 Corinthians 2:15; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:10 (on these present participles, cf. Winers Grammar, 342 (321); Buttmann, 206 (178)).
Now, when looking at the figurative language of Revelation, remember that God is not limited to our time frame. Many do not understand, so prophecy seems to contradict itself. Like when the saints are talking to God on how long He will wait to avenge them. God could be pulling the voices from the future. God can do anything. Remember when God, talking to Cain, said Abel's blood cried at Him from the ground? "And the Lord said unto Cain, where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And He said, what hast thou done? The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground" (Genesis 4:9, 10).
Now it gets interesting, remember what I told you about voices from the future. The white robes could also be in the future. The fifth seal: "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, how long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Revelation 6:9-11).
I am sorry I did not address your exact scriptures. I believe The prayers of the dead saints are talking to God in chapters 7 and 15 just as Abel's blood was talking to God. Remember God does not have our time constraints.
Now it gets interesting, remember what I told you about voices from the future. The white robes could also be in the future. The fifth seal: "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, how long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Revelation 6:9-11).
I am sorry I did not address your exact scriptures. I believe The prayers of the dead saints are talking to God in chapters 7 and 15 just as Abel's blood was talking to God. Remember God does not have our time constraints.
Jonah 2:
1From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the Lord his God. 2He said:
“In my distress I called to the Lord,
and he answered me.
From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
and you listened to my cry.
Jonah was conscious in the realm of the dead.
There's no sleep. When believers die their soul departs and goes to be with the Lord in Heaven. Just like in past times all people died and went to either the torment or paradise side in Sheol. The body dies and withers to dust, but the real you goes on.
Then, at the resurrection, your soul will reunite with a glorified version of this body.
It's simple to understand.
Jesus didn't say to the thief on the cross, "I'll see ya at the Resurrection," He said TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise. That's a comforting feeling.
Besides, this subject pretty much boils down to semantics. Look at it like this: When you go to sleep the next thing you know is that you wake up. Maybe to the observer who is awake will notice time has passed, but you who are sleeping waill wake up feeling as though it was instantaneous.
But our earthly sleep could be interrupted if you are a light sleep, and you may somewhat know time has passed.
IF you soul sleep, which I dont think you do, you will be knocked out -- no intermittent sleep -- and you will wake up to the Resurrection instantly.
Then, at the resurrection, your soul will reunite with a glorified version of this body.
It's simple to understand.
Jesus didn't say to the thief on the cross, "I'll see ya at the Resurrection," He said TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise. That's a comforting feeling.
Besides, this subject pretty much boils down to semantics. Look at it like this: When you go to sleep the next thing you know is that you wake up. Maybe to the observer who is awake will notice time has passed, but you who are sleeping waill wake up feeling as though it was instantaneous.
But our earthly sleep could be interrupted if you are a light sleep, and you may somewhat know time has passed.
IF you soul sleep, which I dont think you do, you will be knocked out -- no intermittent sleep -- and you will wake up to the Resurrection instantly.
KJV Mark 4:1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land. 2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine ... 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
"Many things" and "all these things" refers to the content of the parables, not everything that ever came out of Jesus' mouth to "them that are without".
Notice there's no mention of Pharisees present (although there may have been some).
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
"May" is a term of permission. Parables allow people who close their ears to the teachings (vs. 9) to remain in their ignorance, while those who open their ears may receive the teachings.
Jesus didn't always use this communication device (parables) when He was talking to "outsiders".
"Many things" and "all these things" refers to the content of the parables, not everything that ever came out of Jesus' mouth to "them that are without".
Notice there's no mention of Pharisees present (although there may have been some).
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
"May" is a term of permission. Parables allow people who close their ears to the teachings (vs. 9) to remain in their ignorance, while those who open their ears may receive the teachings.
Jesus didn't always use this communication device (parables) when He was talking to "outsiders".
It seems to me like you are reaching. Of course he wouldn't always use parables when talking to outsiders, but those that he didn't use parables for would be the outsiders who he knew would be saved. Those who wouldn't be would not be spoken to in other than parables. If some that were to be unsaved heard something that was not a parable, I find it obvious that Jesus would know that they would not be saved under any circumstance and would not be concerned about it.
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.John 8:12
John 8:12 begins as a parable revealing himself as the light of the world using light as a metaphor to represent eternal God not seen.
Parables are defined by using the temporal things seen to represent the eternal unseen spiritual things of God .Their lack of faith not receiving the understanding of the parable can be seen in verse 15.
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.John8:15
After the flesh as the things seen.
As natural man (no faith )they judge after the temporal things seen and not according to the prescription for understanding parables the eternal things, not seen. In that way without parables Christ spoke not to the multitude (everyone)
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen "are temporal"; but the things which are not seen "are eternal" 2 Corinthians 4:18
Verse 59 shows they still did not understand or believe the parable the spiritual unseen eternal hidden from them.
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Jonas was involved in a living suffering in the realm of the living just as was the suffering of Christ who cried out to the same father and was delivered when he drank the cup of wrath.
God does not hear the dead. (no necromancy)
They know or feel nothing. When they die their temporal corrupted spirit they were born with (approx.. 80 years) according to the Psalms .It return to the father of all spirits who gave it and their bodies return to the lifeless, spiritless dust it was formed of.
They who have not been given a new born again spirit that could never die will not be raised as those asleep (like a deep hibernation) and with those who remain alive on earth on the last day together in the twinkling of the eye will be changed.
The former things of this world under the sun will not be remembered or ever come to mind forever and ever more
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I agree with everything you said Garee, except that last line. I believe you get this from Isa. 65:17. But look what the scripture is explaining: flesh and blood that will live 100 years; vs. 20. Now, look what Paul says about what we will know after the resurrection:
1 Cor. 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." God will then share all things with us.
It is moot if Luke 16:20 starts a parable or not, because these scriptures tell us that we are not to establish doctrine on one witness.
Matt. 18:16: “But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.”
2 Cor. 13:1: “This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”
Too many other scriptures say the dead are asleep, awaiting resurrection.
1 Cor. 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." God will then share all things with us.
It is moot if Luke 16:20 starts a parable or not, because these scriptures tell us that we are not to establish doctrine on one witness.
Matt. 18:16: “But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.”
2 Cor. 13:1: “This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”
Too many other scriptures say the dead are asleep, awaiting resurrection.
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I agree with everything you said Garee, except that last line. I believe you get this from Isa. 65:17. But look what the scripture is explaining: flesh and blood that will live 100 years; vs. 20. Now, look what Paul says about what we will know after the resurrection:
1 Cor. 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." God will then share all things with us.
It is moot if Luke 16:20 starts a parable or not, because these scriptures tell us that we are not to establish doctrine on one witness.
Matt. 18:16: “But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.”
2 Cor. 13:1: “This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”
Too many other scriptures say the dead are asleep, awaiting resurrection.
1 Cor. 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." God will then share all things with us.
It is moot if Luke 16:20 starts a parable or not, because these scriptures tell us that we are not to establish doctrine on one witness.
Matt. 18:16: “But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.”
2 Cor. 13:1: “This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”
Too many other scriptures say the dead are asleep, awaiting resurrection.
This is why I have decided not to engage in this discussion any longer. I'm virtually certain and will not be convinced that soul sleep and annhilationism are are true. But I think many who subscribe to these doctrines do so because the alternative thought is too awful to contemplate, especially to those who have loved ones that they may fear are lost. Some of which may have died. I see no value in giving them pain even though I think they are wrong.
Can't really see how this is a Salvation issue to those that are already saved, so itr may be better to leave them alone on thios issue.
Can't really see how this is a Salvation issue to those that are already saved, so itr may be better to leave them alone on thios issue.
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Great post. The battle begins among those who are in such a discussion anywhere at all in my opinion? Is that they can go through the Bible and find those verses that support their idea about soul sleep and annihilationism. Typically singular verses are used for that purpose so as to omit the full context of the teaching.
That which says for instance, and fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell. That's from Matthew 10. Besides Paul's writing in 1 Corinthians 15, there's this as pertains to the idea of "soul sleep". The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. Found in Matthew 27.
It is much like the salvation issue. Is it eternal? Of course because God said it was and it is therefore not up for real debate. Are we always in God's grace and eternal salvation even if we fall into disbelief at some point due to being overwhelmed in life and feeling God abandoned us? Yes. God's word tells us that. No one shall ever remove us from Christ's hand. No one pertains to us as well. We can't leave his hand because God knew we would enter there before this world came to exist.
But people who argue for thousands of pages and count hundreds of posts to their credit that we can stop being saved think like a human. Not like God. We can be bad and leave the salvation club and God will let us fall back to where we were. Which is not Biblical.
I think the conflict among people arise when we start to think God thins as we do. That he's as insincere as we are in keeping his word when He gives it. That God turns His back on people when they turn their back on Him.
In the end God will know who those whom He called to his son are. And those who thought God was not as good as His word shall be called to account for that too. Not to present their case before Him for thousands of pages and hundreds of posts. But for once and for eternity.
What Christian argues they're not secure in Christ? How does someone live their life doing God's will when they're not sure God knows they're there.
That which says for instance, and fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell. That's from Matthew 10. Besides Paul's writing in 1 Corinthians 15, there's this as pertains to the idea of "soul sleep". The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. Found in Matthew 27.
It is much like the salvation issue. Is it eternal? Of course because God said it was and it is therefore not up for real debate. Are we always in God's grace and eternal salvation even if we fall into disbelief at some point due to being overwhelmed in life and feeling God abandoned us? Yes. God's word tells us that. No one shall ever remove us from Christ's hand. No one pertains to us as well. We can't leave his hand because God knew we would enter there before this world came to exist.
But people who argue for thousands of pages and count hundreds of posts to their credit that we can stop being saved think like a human. Not like God. We can be bad and leave the salvation club and God will let us fall back to where we were. Which is not Biblical.
I think the conflict among people arise when we start to think God thins as we do. That he's as insincere as we are in keeping his word when He gives it. That God turns His back on people when they turn their back on Him.
In the end God will know who those whom He called to his son are. And those who thought God was not as good as His word shall be called to account for that too. Not to present their case before Him for thousands of pages and hundreds of posts. But for once and for eternity.
What Christian argues they're not secure in Christ? How does someone live their life doing God's will when they're not sure God knows they're there.
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. 13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. 14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
The underlined part is not a parable. Therefore not everything Jesus ever said to outsiders was a parable.
Actually verse 59 shows that they understood very well what Jesus just said, which was not a parable at all.
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
The underlined part is not a parable. Therefore not everything Jesus ever said to outsiders was a parable.
The underlined part is not a parable. Therefore not everything Jesus ever said to outsiders was a parable.
Actually verse 59 shows that they understood very well what Jesus just said, which was not a parable at all.
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
The underlined part is not a parable. Therefore not everything Jesus ever said to outsiders was a parable.