1Cor 1:26 - individual election

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trofimus

trofimus

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For consider your calling, brothers, that not many were wise according to the flesh, not many powerful, not many of noble birth. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world that He might shame the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world that He might shame the strong...
BLB

Some say that God has chosen Christ, but not us as individuals to be called/chosen. But this text quite clearly implies that the calling of God is individually targeted (at the weak, at the unwise etc...) and with a specific purpose (to shame the powerful, to shame the wise etc).

It would not be possible if all are equally chosen by God... would it?
 
Quantrill

Quantrill

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God's ways are equal in that all are sinners before Him. And He has provided salvation for all. But that is as far as His equality goes. Our being chosen is based on Him alone.

I remember reading a book on revivals, and I can't remember what book it was, but the Queen of England was present at one of them. And the preacher used this verse, (1 Cor. 1:26) to preach on and he read it. And the Queen was heard to say, "I am glad he didn't say 'none' instead of 'not many', as she was a Christian.

Quantrill
 
J

John146

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#3
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#3
trofimus said:
For consider your calling, brothers, that not many were wise according to the flesh, not many powerful, not many of noble birth. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world that He might shame the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world that He might shame the strong...
BLB

Some say that God has chosen Christ, but not us as individuals to be called/chosen. But this text quite clearly implies that the calling of God is individually targeted (at the weak, at the unwise etc...) and with a specific purpose (to shame the powerful, to shame the wise etc).

It would not be possible if all are equally chosen by God... would it?
Click to expand...
The calling of God are for those already in Christ. Once you have received salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ, God calls you to live a life pleasing to Him according to His will and not your own.
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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Now we know that many calvinists arent called. Many of them are highly educated and love to debate. Very esteemed in the world, professors!

Thanks for pointing that out
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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John146 said:
The calling of God are for those already in Christ. Once you have received salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ, God calls you to live a life pleasing to Him according to His will and not your own.
Click to expand...
Don’t know how you got that out of that verse. It’s talking about calling people to be in Christ, it doesnt say anything about a believers works.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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John146 said:
The calling of God are for those already in Christ. Once you have received salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ, God calls you to live a life pleasing to Him according to His will and not your own.
Click to expand...
is that calling only for a small proportion of Christians?
because the text is talking about a calling in which relatively few wise, few powerful, few rich were chosen.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Hevosmies said:
Now we know that many calvinists arent called. Many of them are highly educated and love to debate. Very esteemed in the world, professors!

Thanks for pointing that out
Click to expand...
are you saying that Arminians are generally uneducated?
 
G

garee

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KJV1611 said:
Don’t know how you got that out of that verse. It’s talking about calling people to be in Christ, it doesnt say anything about a believers works.
Click to expand...

I would agree it God's works that he works in us .No man of his volition can seek after God. He must first give us His understanding. And it has nothing to do with as it would seem taking pot shots at Calvinist. Its simply not an intellectual gospel regardless of what group a person falls under.
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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posthuman said:
are you saying that Arminians are generally uneducated?
Click to expand...
Arminians are definately more "regular joe" christians. And I dont mean that as disrespect. Pentecostals are considered arminians, and if you go to a pentecostal church and ask around, you will see regular people using regular language, very few use words like "exegete, eisegesis, soteriology, effectual calling" and all the other words that are very common even "lay calvinists". (In fact; many pentecostals dont even KNOW they are arminians, and dont even know what it is, how is it vice versa?).


This is just what I have observed and is not applicable to everyone, which is why i said "many" and not "all"
 
PennEd

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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#10
Quantrill said:
God's ways are equal in that all are sinners before Him. And He has provided salvation for all. But that is as far as His equality goes. Our being chosen is based on Him alone.

I remember reading a book on revivals, and I can't remember what book it was, but the Queen of England was present at one of them. And the preacher used this verse, (1 Cor. 1:26) to preach on and he read it. And the Queen was heard to say, "I am glad he didn't say 'none' instead of 'not many', as she was a Christian.

Quantrill
Click to expand...

I've heard that Queen of England quote also, but a little differently. She would say she was saved by an "M" because it says not Many noble are saved, and thankfully it doesn't say "not any".
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Hevosmies said:
Arminians are definately more "regular joe" christians. And I dont mean that as disrespect. Pentecostals are considered arminians, and if you go to a pentecostal church and ask around, you will see regular people using regular language, very few use words like "exegete, eisegesis, soteriology, effectual calling" and all the other words that are very common even "lay calvinists". (In fact; many pentecostals dont even KNOW they are arminians, and dont even know what it is, how is it vice versa?).


This is just what I have observed and is not applicable to everyone, which is why i said "many" and not "all"
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personally, i didn't know most of these words until i came to CC and stated reading threads whose purpose was to bash Calvinism.
so it was Arminians that taught me that vocabulary :)
 
BaptistBibleBeliever

BaptistBibleBeliever

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#12
trofimus said:
For consider your calling, brothers, that not many were wise according to the flesh, not many powerful, not many of noble birth. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world that He might shame the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world that He might shame the strong...
BLB

Some say that God has chosen Christ, but not us as individuals to be called/chosen. But this text quite clearly implies that the calling of God is individually targeted (at the weak, at the unwise etc...) and with a specific purpose (to shame the powerful, to shame the wise etc).

It would not be possible if all are equally chosen by God... would it?
Click to expand...
I Corinthians 1:26 can not be isolated from the rest of the chapter and then used to teach whatever we might fancy it to teach. Verse 1 provides us the context - it is the "preaching of the cross" in view here. It is the calling of the man of God from amongst his brethren to proclaim the Gospel through the power of God.

Verse 2 says that God will confound the 'wisdom of the world' through preaching. God will silence the evolutionists, the scientists that tell us when life supposedly begins based on their research, and on and on. "Let God be true, and every man a liar" comes to mind.

Great PHd's and Doctors of Divinity are nothing against a barely educated man holding a copy of the Word of God and preaching it with boldness, grace and God's power.

God uses these foolish things, He says, to confound the wise. Why? "That no flesh should glory in his presence."

The Bible tells us that we are 'complete in Him' - Jesus Christ.

Paul here tells us that that completeness includes a few things, such as.

Wisdom
Righteousness
Sanctification
Redemption

On thing about the Calvinist doctrine is that they sure love to pull verses out of context in order to cram their unreasonable theories down people's throats.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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garee said:
Its simply not an intellectual gospel regardless of what group a person falls under.
Click to expand...

i disagree with that. Christianity in the Bible encourages us to think. it's about belief, faith -- which is a mental property, not an emotional property. it's about salvation through grace, not works, which is a non-physical property, not a physical property. the scriptures teach us to 'examine' ourselves, and to 'study' to show ourselves approved. to search the scriptures and find Christ in them. it says that elders should be able to refute false doctrine, and everyone should always be ready to give reason for what they believe. it says we should all be growing in 'knowledge of God' and Christ says that 'to know' God is eternal life.

Christianity is a very intellectual gospel - it's not about 'the feels' or 'the works' -- it's about 'knowing' and 'believing' and 'understanding' -- walking in wisdom, not seeking signs, not about emotional fervor or physical ritual but about sure hope and steadfast faith based on spiritual knowledge and enduring belief. in Judea the people were amazed at how the Galilean apostles had such great understanding of the scripture, seeing that they were a generally uneducated and brutish subculture.

many other religions - even many false gospels - teach people to shut off their brains and 'do' certain things. but Christianity never encourages people to stop thinking. the scriptures say, wisdom is the primary thing, get knowledge, get understanding. find the Truth and don't let go of it or compromise it. Acts records Paul going all around the Aegean explaining the gospel of the crucified and risen Messiah in synagogues, reasoning and arguing with the Jews from the scripture and from facts they all know by observation and logic.
that's intellectual, not emotional, not ritual, not physical. he wasn't telling them, look for a 'burning in your bosoms' lol - he was telling them, read and understand the scripture, look at what miraculous things happened in Israel through Jesus, put two and two together in your minds, believe!
 
G

garee

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Hevosmies said:
Arminians are definately more "regular joe" christians. And I dont mean that as disrespect. Pentecostals are considered arminians, and if you go to a pentecostal church and ask around, you will see regular people using regular language, very few use words like "exegete, eisegesis, soteriology, effectual calling" and all the other words that are very common even "lay calvinists". (In fact; many pentecostals dont even KNOW they are arminians, and dont even know what it is, how is it vice versa?).


This is just what I have observed and is not applicable to everyone, which is why i said "many" and not "all"
Click to expand...
Regular Joe Christians? If you did not mean that in disrespect then did you mean it in respect as a form of pride as if God was a respecter of persons, as those who do not use words like "exegete, eisegesis, soteriology, effectual calling"?

Pentecostals are not required to know they are arminians they are. Just as calvinist are not required to know Calvin. It just a name someone attached to their belief system.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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posthuman said:
i disagree with that. Christianity in the Bible encourages us to think. it's about belief, faith -- which is a mental property, not an emotional property. it's about salvation through grace, not works, which is a non-physical property, not a physical property. the scriptures teach us to 'examine' ourselves, and to 'study' to show ourselves approved. to search the scriptures and find Christ in them. it says that elders should be able to refute false doctrine, and everyone should always be ready to give reason for what they believe. it says we should all be growing in 'knowledge of God' and Christ says that 'to know' God is eternal life.

Christianity is a very intellectual gospel - it's not about 'the feels' or 'the works' -- it's about 'knowing' and 'believing' and 'understanding' -- walking in wisdom, not seeking signs, not about emotional fervor or physical ritual but about sure hope and steadfast faith based on spiritual knowledge and enduring belief. in Judea the people were amazed at how the Galilean apostles had such great understanding of the scripture, seeing that they were a generally uneducated and brutish subculture.

many other religions - even many false gospels - teach people to shut off their brains and 'do' certain things. but Christianity never encourages people to stop thinking. the scriptures say, wisdom is the primary thing, get knowledge, get understanding. find the Truth and don't let go of it or compromise it. Acts records Paul going all around the Aegean explaining the gospel of the crucified and risen Messiah in synagogues, reasoning and arguing with the Jews from the scripture and from facts they all know by observation and logic.
that's intellectual, not emotional, not ritual, not physical. he wasn't telling them, look for a 'burning in your bosoms' lol - he was telling them, read and understand the scripture, look at what miraculous things happened in Israel through Jesus, put two and two together in your minds, believe!
Click to expand...
having said all that, i can't leave out this other thing:

i have a friend who is a university psychology professor, who told me he came to faith in Christ because he looked at other beliefs and religions, and he reasoned for himself that this is the only faith that makes sense. that he came to belief in Christ through logic and reasoning, being convinced of the gospel by an intellectual means.

i told him i didn't believe that was possible -- that the scriptures say, no one comes to Him without being drawn by the Spirit, and that the carnal man, not having the Spirit, cannot understand the things of God. i told him that though from his perspective he came to believe through the working of his own mind, by his own logic, it cannot be the whole picture, the 'real' picture -- that it was the Spirit of God drawing him ((even be it through intellectual means, guiding his thinking)), and that he could not possibly have understood the thing he was convincing himself through reason was true unless the Spirit of God was working in his heart and mind to open it to the truth and allow it to see and understand. God Himself had to pull down the veil in my friends heart before my friend could see what it is that he would intellectually reason to be the only truth that makes sense.

so i don't believe anyone can arrive at faith purely through intellect, though i do believe that Christianity is more 'intellectual' than other religions/beliefs/faiths. it is the will and working of God, apart from the will and work of man.
((later, lol, when i got to CC i learned that this belief puts me under a certain label some people like to use, called 'calvinist'))
 
BaptistBibleBeliever

BaptistBibleBeliever

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#16
What I have learned of Calvinism can be summed up in this simple statement . . . "Lost men need not apply"

They are worse than the cults. At least the cults use a little Bible and seeds get planted. God can use it later to convict their hearts, as He did with me.
 
G

garee

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#17
i disagree with that. Christianity in the Bible encourages us to think. it's about belief, faith -- which is a mental property, not an emotional property. it's about salvation through grace, not works, which is a non-physical property, not a physical property. the scriptures teach us to 'examine' ourselves, and to 'study' to show ourselves approved. to search the scriptures and find Christ in them. it says that elders should be able to refute false doctrine, and everyone should always be ready to give reason for what they believe. it says we should all be growing in 'knowledge of God' and Christ says that 'to know' God is eternal life.

With all due respect.

Can't find Christ who has no form unless he first give us His faith to make it possible to seek after Him . No one of there own volition can seek after him. He must do the first works in us as our first love of knowing Him.

Yes intellectual as far as having the mind of Christ(not of our own selves) in respect to our new faith, the faith of God .Again not of the imaginations of our own hearts . But not intellectual according to the pattern of this world as the philosophies of men.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

We cannot let his mind in us unless he does the first work of giving us His faith. We can study as in planting the spiritual Seed Christ or water it with the water of the word(doctrines of God ) but he alone causes the growth if there is any .

Those who chased after a intellectual gospel ( the Greek) fell into the same place as those who chased after a sign or walked by sight before they would believe.(the Jew) Both stumbled over the cross.

For the Jews require a sign (walking by sight) , and the Greeks seek after wisdom: (philosophy) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;1 Corintian 1:22-23
 
posthuman

posthuman

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#18
BaptistBibleBeliever said:
What I have learned of Calvinism can be summed up in this simple statement . . . "Lost men need not apply"

They are worse than the cults. At least the cults use a little Bible and seeds get planted. God can use it later to convict their hearts, as He did with me.
Click to expand...
that's interesting; the other guy said Calvinists are on the whole more highly educated. i assumed that meant that they generally know a lot about the Bible and speak about it intelligently. and if i know one thing about 'average Joe' Christians, it's that they are generally Biblically illiterate. he said 'average Joe' is most likely Arminian.
so i was getting the picture that Calvinists talk about the Bible alot and Arminians don't.. is your experience the opposite?

((i still don't know what either of you mean when you say the word 'Calvinism' -- people seem to use that word without defining it, and it seems to mean a lot of different things to different people))

i never read anything by Calvin or by Arminius. on the whole, what i've gleaned about both has been from what their opponents say.
i'm not really sure i have an accurate picture of something when all i hear about it is what people who attack it say.
not really interested in finding out, to be honest -- i wanna talk about Jesus-ism lol, what the Bible says, not what some commentator says. am quite sure that every human - myself near top of list - is wrong about many things, so i don't exactly want to go out of my way to study any of these 'some-person-ism-s'
 
G

garee

Banned
#19
Mar 28, 2016
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#19
BaptistBibleBeliever said:
What I have learned of Calvinism can be summed up in this simple statement . . . "Lost men need not apply"

They are worse than the cults. At least the cults use a little Bible and seeds get planted. God can use it later to convict their hearts, as He did with me.
Click to expand...
Lost men without faith, not little, none need to hear God, called "the hearing of faith" (his) the pearl of great price that was found .

It's not dead Calvin or any man we defend to include one self. We defend the faith of Christ which defends us, the word of God as the armor of God, the sword of the Spirit.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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#20
Jul 31, 2013
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#20
garee said:
i disagree with that. Christianity in the Bible encourages us to think. it's about belief, faith -- which is a mental property, not an emotional property. it's about salvation through grace, not works, which is a non-physical property, not a physical property. the scriptures teach us to 'examine' ourselves, and to 'study' to show ourselves approved. to search the scriptures and find Christ in them. it says that elders should be able to refute false doctrine, and everyone should always be ready to give reason for what they believe. it says we should all be growing in 'knowledge of God' and Christ says that 'to know' God is eternal life.

With all due respect.

Can't find Christ who has no form unless he first give us His faith to make it possible to seek after Him . No one of there own volition can seek after him. He must do the first works in us as our first love of knowing Him.

Yes intellectual as far as having the mind of Christ(not of our own selves) in respect to our new faith, the faith of God .Again not of the imaginations of our own hearts . But not intellectual according to the pattern of this world as the philosophies of men.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

We cannot let his mind in us unless he does the first work of giving us His faith. We can study as in planting the spiritual Seed Christ or water it with the water of the word(doctrines of God ) but he alone causes the growth if there is any .

Those who chased after a intellectual gospel ( the Greek) fell into the same place as those who chased after a sign or walked by sight before they would believe.(the Jew) Both stumbled over the cross.

For the Jews require a sign (walking by sight) , and the Greeks seek after wisdom: (philosophy) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;1 Corintian 1:22-23
Click to expand...

yes, you are saying pretty much what i was saying in post #15
in re: my friend who thinks ((thought? i should have this conversation with him again)) that he arrived at faith by intellectual means.

and i read about how Paul went to reason with and preach to the Jews, how they rejected him, and how he went then to the Greeks, many of whom believed.

primarily what i meant was that Christianity is definitely not about shutting your brain off and feeling an emotional high. it is not a salvation accomplished through physical means, by works or by ceremonies, but by grace through faith - belief being a property of the mind, not the belly.
and qualifying that by saying that it's the working of God through putting His Spirit in us that removes the veil and opens our hearts and minds to the Truth -- first and foremost, we are saved by supernatural means. and this results in a renewing of our minds - an intellectual process taking place through spiritual means.
 
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