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J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#141
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#141
Lillywolf said:
Maybe this will help. Soteriology 101 The Corporate View of Election
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Thanks for the link, I listen some of what he believe, he believe there is corporation election, for Example Israel was elect by God to bring salvation to the world, and there is individual election, for Example God elect Mary to be Jesus mother.

But he do not believe total dipravity, t for him is total responsibility. It is our responsibility to accept or not the good news.

Than for is salvation can be lost, he agree with Calvin. He believe when you love you wife, It never change, If after 10 years you divorce, It mean you not love. So do love to God.

I do not know If this Logic is true. You do not love God before, than you hear about God and change from not love to love.

Interesting doctrine, but we have to keep pray If It is from the Holy Spirit.
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
#142
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,974
113
#142
READ 11 COR., Brothers and Sisters, with an open heart, this will help you to live in Christ's ways -
thus give you the way to Hope and Salvation...
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#143
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
113
#143
Lillywolf said:
No one comes to Jesus except the Father draws, calls, them. Every person can hear the Gospel.
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Did you know that while the Father draws all men to Christ, the Son and the Holy Spirit work with Him in concert? So yes, no one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Godhead. And ALL are drawn to Christ when the Gospel is preached. That is the purpose of the Gospel, that while it is preached, God draws sinners to the Savior. Not to exclude anyone, but to include all. Yet all have not obeyed the Gospel.


And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)

Ephesians 1:4
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Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
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This Scripture should NOT be misapplied. Those who will believe have been chosen from "before the foundation of the world. They are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God". And this is NOT election unto salvation, but election unto perfection.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)

So we are to always rightly divide the Word of Truth. God desires the salvation of all, but elects -- ACCORDING TO HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE -- those who will repent and believe.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#144
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
113
#144
selfdissolving said:
But not everyone who hears it does obey. Most people reject it. People rejected it when Jesus himself preached it.
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Correct. And I have already quoted that Scripture above. But that does not automatically mean that God caused them to disobey the Gospel so that only the elect would obey. That would be absurd. Thus TULIP leads to ABSURDITY.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#145
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#145
Just yesterday morning a man came in at the age of 43 complaining of chest pain. The EKG showed he was having a very severe heart attack. I talked to him before knowing he was having an actual heart attack and I helped to cover him up with a blanket. As they were loading him onto an ambulance to transfer him to another facility, he crashed. They rushed him back in the ER and called a code blue and got him back. As they were loading him again he crashed, and one of the ER nurses went with them and helped to do chest compressions. I found out a little while ago he was DOA at that facility. I was actually praying for him before he coded, and began earnestly praying for him afterwards, almost in tears.

I like this quote from Michael Horton...“People ask me, ‘Why pray if God is sovereign?’ I respond, ‘Why pray if He isn’t?”
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#146
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#146
Nehemiah6 said:
Did you know that while the Father draws all men to Christ, the Son and the Holy Spirit work with Him in concert? So yes, no one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Godhead. And ALL are drawn to Christ when the Gospel is preached. That is the purpose of the Gospel, that while it is preached, God draws sinners to the Savior. Not to exclude anyone, but to include all. Yet all have not obeyed the Gospel.<snip>
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My friend, I say hello to you, and I hope to help you understand the word 'draw' in its proper context. Its the Greek word ἑλκύσω(pronounced hel-kou-so) and it means to literally drag. It is the same Greek word found in John 18:10 when Peter drew the sword and in John 21:11 when Peter drew the net full of fish to the shore. It is also used as dragged in Acts 17:6 when the unruly mob dragged Jason and some of his brothers out of their house(the King James uses the word drew). All of this means that in each instance when something was 'drew', 'drawn', 'dragged', etc., it means it was an effective drawing.

So, if Jesus is drawing all people indiscriminately as ἑλκύσω means, then everybody is saved, as those He draws will come.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#147
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
113
#147
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
So, if Jesus is drawing all people indiscriminately as ἑλκύσω means, then everybody is saved, as those He draws will come.
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Well then you will have to talk to Jesus about a lack of discrimination!

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw* all men unto me. (John 12:32)

*Strong's Concordance (1670)
helkó: to drag
Original Word: ἑλκύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: helkó
Phonetic Spelling: (hel-koo'-o)
Definition: to drag
Usage: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.

As already stated, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit draw all men to Christ through the Gospel. "But they have not all obeyed the Gospel".

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

Even though all these Scriptures are there, and clearly stated, Calvinists continue to persist in their erroneous beliefs. That is the power of a lie.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#148
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#148
Nehemiah6 said:
Even though all these Scriptures are there, and clearly stated, Calvinists continue to persist in their erroneous beliefs. That is the power of a lie.
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I think this is a logical fallacy.

The fact that some verses can be ambiguos or the fact that you can explain some verse in a different way than calvinism does, does not logically mean that calvinism is an erroneous belief or under the power of lie or that calvinists must switch to your views.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#149
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#149
Nehemiah6 said:
Well then you will have to talk to Jesus about a lack of discrimination!

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw* all men unto me. (John 12:32)

*Strong's Concordance (1670)
helkó: to drag
Original Word: ἑλκύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: helkó
Phonetic Spelling: (hel-koo'-o)
Definition: to drag
Usage: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.

As already stated, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit draw all men to Christ through the Gospel. "But they have not all obeyed the Gospel".

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

Even though all these Scriptures are there, and clearly stated, Calvinists continue to persist in their erroneous beliefs. That is the power of a lie.
Click to expand...
And you missed my point, my friend. If He literally draws everybody indiscriminately, then all are saved. Those He draws, they will be effectively drawn to Him. That is what ἑλκύσω means.

Plus, seeing that not everybody hears the gospel, He can not draw them, seeing He does this through His word, the bible.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#151
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#151
Nehemiah6 said:
Did you know that while the Father draws all men to Christ, the Son and the Holy Spirit work with Him in concert? So yes, no one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Godhead. And ALL are drawn to Christ when the Gospel is preached. That is the purpose of the Gospel, that while it is preached, God draws sinners to the Savior. Not to exclude anyone, but to include all. Yet all have not obeyed the Gospel.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)


This Scripture should NOT be misapplied. Those who will believe have been chosen from "before the foundation of the world. They are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God". And this is NOT election unto salvation, but election unto perfection.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)

So we are to always rightly divide the Word of Truth. God desires the salvation of all, but elects -- ACCORDING TO HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE -- those who will repent and believe.
Click to expand...
μὴ εὑρόντες δὲ αὐτοὺς ἔσυρον Ἰάσονα καί τινας ἀδελφοὺς ἐπὶ τοὺς πολιτάρχας, βοῶντες ὅτι Οἱ τὴν οἰκουμένην ἀναστατώσαντες οὗτοι καὶ ἐνθάδε πάρεισιν, (Acts of the Apostles 17:6)
Nehemiah6 said:
Did you know that while the Father draws all men to Christ, the Son and the Holy Spirit work with Him in concert? So yes, no one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Godhead. And ALL are drawn to Christ when the Gospel is preached. That is the purpose of the Gospel, that while it is preached, God draws sinners to the Savior. Not to exclude anyone, but to include all. Yet all have not obeyed the Gospel.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)


This Scripture should NOT be misapplied. Those who will believe have been chosen from "before the foundation of the world. They are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God". And this is NOT election unto salvation, but election unto perfection.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)

So we are to always rightly divide the Word of Truth. God desires the salvation of all, but elects -- ACCORDING TO HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE -- those who will repent and believe.
Click to expand...
I owe you an apology, my friend. Acts of the Apostles 17:6 does not use ἑλκύσω, but uses σύρω,v (soo-ro), which means to drag.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#154
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#154
BaptistBibleBeliever said:
God does, according to Calvinism. He even takes pleasure in it. You do not agree with your god? Neither do I.
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God does not delight in the death of the wicked, my friend. Yet, in His Justice and Holiness, sinners must be punished.

R.C. Sproul said it best when he said(paraphrasing this) when a judge sentences someone to jail, he is bound by the law to give him his just sentence. God sentences the lost to an eternal hell because He is bound to His word.
 
L

Lillywolf

Well-known member
#155
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
543
113
#155
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
God does not delight in the death of the wicked, my friend. Yet, in His Justice and Holiness, sinners must be punished.

R.C. Sproul said it best when he said(paraphrasing this) when a judge sentences someone to jail, he is bound by the law to give him his just sentence. God sentences the lost to an eternal hell because He is bound to His word.
Click to expand...
Everything the Christian knows and is taught about sin, redemption, and damnation,is a paradigm first created and orchestrated by the will and power of God.
Hell was first created to receive Satan and his fallen angel followers. Then God opened it in Revelation we're told so as to receive the souls of those who died in their sins.
And that then makes for the curiosity of scripture in the OT and the book written by Solomon, Ecclesiastes, 12:7 wherein he says, "
Then the dust [of mortals] goes back to the ground as it was before, and the breath of life goes back to God who gave it."

That scripture does not differentiate saved breath or damned in their sins breath, soul. It says the breath of life, the soul given mortal flesh, dust, by God, returns to God.
Ergo, if the lost in their sins soul goes to Hell, God's breath goes to Hell?
Is that what was meant in the Psalmist David's writing 139:7-8? "Where can I go [to get away] from your Spirit? Where can I run [to get away] from you? 8.If I ascend to the heavens, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there."

And don't forget Jeremiah 23:24

God existed before all things. Omnipresent. All things exist because of the divine providence of creator.
 
BaptistBibleBeliever

BaptistBibleBeliever

Well-known member
#156
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,032
113
71
Illinois
#156
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
God does not delight in the death of the wicked, my friend. Yet, in His Justice and Holiness, sinners must be punished.

R.C. Sproul said it best when he said(paraphrasing this) when a judge sentences someone to jail, he is bound by the law to give him his just sentence. God sentences the lost to an eternal hell because He is bound to His word.
Click to expand...
How is it a 'just' sentence when the sinner has no opportunity to respond to the Gospel. You god has blocked his ability to come to the cross. That's not just at all. That's a crime.

At least when a judge sentences someone to jail, there is reasonable proof that he acted with criminal intent. The unelected sinner doesn't get that chance at all.

I believe you are coming under conviction and seeing the injustice of your god.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#157
#157
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
God does not delight in the death of the wicked, my friend. Yet, in His Justice and Holiness, sinners must be punished.

R.C. Sproul said it best when he said(paraphrasing this) when a judge sentences someone to jail, he is bound by the law to give him his just sentence. God sentences the lost to an eternal hell because He is bound to His word.
Click to expand...
That is not the issue in Calvinism is it?

The issue is some are chosen out of this sentence/punishment and yet they were just as guilty as the rest.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#158
#158
BaptistBibleBeliever said:
How is it a 'just' sentence when the sinner has no opportunity to respond to the Gospel. You god has blocked his ability to come to the cross. That's not just at all. That's a crime.
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Exactly.... a morally ambiguous God.
 
BaptistBibleBeliever

BaptistBibleBeliever

Well-known member
#159
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,032
113
71
Illinois
#159
Lillywolf said:
Everything the Christian knows and is taught about sin, redemption, and damnation,is a paradigm first created and orchestrated by the will and power of God.
Hell was first created to receive Satan and his fallen angel followers. Then God opened it in Revelation we're told so as to receive the souls of those who died in their sins.
And that then makes for the curiosity of scripture in the OT and the book written by Solomon, Ecclesiastes, 12:7 wherein he says, "
Then the dust [of mortals] goes back to the ground as it was before, and the breath of life goes back to God who gave it."

That scripture does not differentiate saved breath or damned in their sins breath, soul. It says the breath of life, the soul given mortal flesh, dust, by God, returns to God.
Ergo, if the lost in their sins soul goes to Hell, God's breath goes to Hell?
Is that what was meant in the Psalmist David's writing 139:7-8? "Where can I go [to get away] from your Spirit? Where can I run [to get away] from you? 8.If I ascend to the heavens, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there."

And don't forget Jeremiah 23:24

God existed before all things. Omnipresent. All things exist because of the divine providence of creator.
Click to expand...
You make a very good point. If God created hell ONLY for the devil and his angels, then there is no way to suggest that he ever elected men to reprobation.

It is proven to be a fallacy from the beginning.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#160
Sep 4, 2013
30,700
6,888
113
#160
So, Calvinist pray for the lost............boy, talk about an exercise in futility!

Canada Goose_KK_APA_2013_28563_226667_BenjaminSchelling.jpg
 
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