Out Of This World

posthuman · Dec 16, 2018

I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. All Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one. While I was with them, I kept them in Your name, which You have given Me.
(John 17:9-12)

this whole passage is immeasurably profound, but i wanted to focus in on this part in this thread:

"I am no longer in the world"

what does this mean???
how was He no longer in the world?
when was He in the world, when did He cease to be?
if not in the world and coming to the Father, where was He?
????
???
??
?

Lanolin · Dec 16, 2018

In heaven??

Locutus · Dec 16, 2018

"No longer in the world" I think Bones relates to His ministry and physical engagement was coming to an end, while the apostles was continuing.

posthuman · Dec 16, 2018

Lanolin said:

but He says,

"and I am coming to You"

so not? where is the Father?

this is the prayer the night they came to the garden to seize Him. physically the man Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane while He spoke these words - but He says, in present tense, He is no longer in the world, while His physical body was right there, living and breathing, a little ways off from the disciples who kept falling asleep.

they kept falling asleep, but someone heard this and John wrote it down, i presume? with that in mind i think He must have said this aloud in order for them to hear and so it would be recorded in scripture -- it was His habit to go off by Himself to pray, not pray aloud in the middle of the disciples, as far as it was recorded. this seems purposefully done, to me. i'm saying this, because i think probably to really understand this we have to also understand that these words are deliberate

posthuman · Dec 16, 2018

Locutus said:

that's what the sermons i've been able to find generally give as an explanation.
but i think, then it would be, 'soon I will no longer be in the world' instead. saying this in present tense wouldn't be true -- but this is God talking. what He says is 100% perfect and true -- so that explanation's unsatisfactory, to me.

Hevosmies · Dec 16, 2018

Lets remember this man (posthuman) is a mathematician by profession if im not mistaken?

That explains this question.

Nehemiah6 · Dec 16, 2018

posthuman said:

It is really quite simple. At this point Jesus -- as God --- already saw His finished work as AN ACCOMPLISHED FACT and that He was seated at the right hand of the Father (therefore no longer in the world).

God sees all future events as accomplished facts, particularly when He purposes them.

posthuman · Dec 16, 2018

btw, dear reader,

post doesn't have this figured out.
i'm genuinely asking a question, it's not one of those "after it goes a page or too i'm planning to preach at them" threads lol
all comments and tangential discussion welcome

Lanolin · Dec 16, 2018

Oh ok well in this chapter 17 jesus is praying and its said hes lifting up his eyes to Heaven in verse 1.

Nehemiah6 · Dec 16, 2018

Hevosmies said:

In that case Christ's departure from earth was an accomplished mathematical fact at that moment. Indeed when He met Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration they spoke of His EXODUS (departure).

posthuman · Dec 16, 2018

Hevosmies said:

currently, technically, i measure things for a living

there is no concept of 'measurement' without math

Lanolin · Dec 16, 2018

posthuman said:

Posthuman could you figure out some maths in another thread? Someones posted a question when did the world become corrupt. You might know. Im not very good at maths. I cant even count tithes properly.

posthuman · Dec 16, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

see that explanation contradicts itself, tho -- because He says He is coming to the father in the same tense and at the same time that He says He is no longer in the world. if He is ignoring time and space and speaking of being in a place He isn't physically at and at a time He isn't temporally dwelling in, then it's inconsistent to simultaneously say He's coming to the Father.

what i do like about your thought though is that it points out how in this passage physical reality is divided from what He considers reality. this verse establishes that within time, the location of the physical body is not necessarily the location of the person, in His eyes.

Locutus · Dec 16, 2018

posthuman said:

He could have said that Bones, butsss, we need to consider previous context etc.

John 16:19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?

posthuman · Dec 16, 2018

Lanolin said:

oh, i answered that question. it became corrupt in Genesis 3 -- the woman and the man sinned in this chapter, and the earth was cursed for the man's sake. so there's 2 descriptions of corruption, the first two in the Bible, having to do with mankind and with creation.

btw in my opinion the math almost everyone uses to count tithes is incorrect. so don't worry - God loves a cheerful giver, and giving must be without compulsion ((2 Corinthians 9:7))

Nehemiah6 · Dec 16, 2018

posthuman said:

It is not really a contradiction. All the phases of the departure of Christ are included in "I am no longer in the world", from the crucifixion, to the resurrection, to the ascension, to the seating at the right hand of the Father.

posthuman · Dec 16, 2018

Locutus said:

to be fair, He wasn't mixing time up in that statement, He was definitively speaking of the present as the present, the future as the future, the past as the past. and that's not part of the prayer in chapter 17, so it's not really the same context.

it's interesting though that not long before this, we see Him speaking of time in a definite, not abstract way, though - because that really emphasizes the mystery of what He is saying here!

posthuman · Dec 16, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

including the "I am coming to You" -- that tells us He isn't speaking of the future here as though it is present tense. the rest of the prayer doesn't logically ((to me)) accord with that explanation, either.
that statement, expressing a state of coming to the Father, is enigmatic in itself! with the next breath He declares He and the Father are One -- 'coming to' implies a current state of separation, but 'we are one' implies the opposite. this tells me, we aren't speaking in any simple human terms here

Miri · Dec 16, 2018

As the hymn writer said.

Let heaven and earth combine
Angels and men agree
To sing in songs devine
The incarnate deity
Our God contracted to a span
In comprehensively made man.

After the resurrection, Jesus was no longer of this world.
He took back the mantle of Devine nature. His body was different too.
He could be in one place then instantly in another, He could enter a locked
room, He could be taken up into the sky. He could do all manner of things.
He no longer had an earthly body, He was not of this earth.

Think of it as, he was no longer bound to earth, whereas all of us still are.

Locutus · Dec 16, 2018

posthuman said:

The problem with trying to make the time "statements" any thing other than what they are you then end up with unsolvable logic contradictions such:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

How can he have "finished the work" when he had not gone to the cross and then ascend?

Out Of This World

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