IF there was a Rapture at the start off a 7 year tribulation period, then

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Sherril

Guest
True,but earth to God is like us holding a tennis ball.
Just imagine him moving completly across the sky in 5 or 10 min
All could be gathered in a few minutes,
In a mere 10 minutes, the bride in africa and N&S America could be gathered.
Thank you for responding you know i sure do not understand all of Gods ways...but wow i do know He is able to complete his work in us, on the earth now and forever even since the beginning of time for us his creation...go figure God has no beginning and no end, He always has been in our humanness we cant grasp such a concept ...yet God is God i cant wait to be with my Abba God forever and ever...(1 tim. 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen...(Ps. 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God...(Ps. 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite...love in Christ Sherril...:)... 18055674_809193769229134_6628954148428526982_o.jpg (Ps. 90:1-2
Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God........
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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[…]Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. "
In the scripture above, Paul is teaching that we are not under the law, but under grace. Jesus disarmed the rulers and authorities (powers of darkness) by meeting the righteous requirements of the law and paying the penalty for sins, so that he fulfilled the law satisfying it completely.
My point is that, Paul did not tell the Colossians "not to let anyone judge them because they were observing God's sabbaths and feast" but was telling them not to let anyone judge them for not observing them as a means for salvation. For those things were all observances of the law, the feasts, abstaining from certain foods, the Sabbaths, New Moons, etc. For these were all observances required by the law.
In other words […].
While I totally agree with you that WE ("the Church which is His body") is under no obligation to observe these things (because Christ is the Reality), I do believe that because the grammar is written as: "which ARE [plural; present tense] A SHADOW [singular] of things coming [present tense, participle, plural; (we'd say, '[are] certain-to-come')]" and then because Jesus had said, in Luke 22:30,[15]16,18 [parallel Matt26:29] "16 I will not eat any more thereof [see v.15 'the passover'] UNTIL it BE FULFILLED in the kingdom of God" and "18 I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, UNTIL the kingdom of God shall come," with Mt26:29 saying, "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, UNTIL THAT DAY when I drink it NEW WITH [G3326 - meta - accompanying] YOU in My Father's kingdom."

Once our Rapture takes place, one can see certain things in the "FUTURE aspects" of The Revelation (that is, chpts 4-19 especially, i.e. the 7-yr TRIB years) that pertain to Israel's past that will serve to point "the wise [of Israel]" TO CHRIST JESUS their MESSIAH and His promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, when they are in the midst of the trib; many "timing-markers" [within that text] that will come to make sense to THEM (at that future time). Example: Rev8:1-5 spells out things which are associated with a particular/specific date on the Hebrew calendar-of-events, which timing will align with actual calendar dates that will aid them in that time of great deception (meaning, those who will have come to faith during that time, of course, not those who will not have and refuse to give heed to His Word but disregard it instead).

One more example: "kings went out to battle" and were "crowned" [Rev19] at a very specific time/day (per the OT) and their knowing this fact will shield them from the deceptions that will be assailing them... (a great many other things like this within "The Revelation" supplying specific TIMING CLUES they will come to "understand" [and they will benefit others with this "understanding" as well, meaning the "a great multitude" of the ations/Gentiles and the "Sheep" of the nations/Gentiles, of that future time period).

Another example: Exodus 31:13,17 says the sabbath [7th day] is "A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel forever"... things like that (in Rev)...
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ EDIT: not enough time to edit MY grammar and spellings... My apologies. LOL
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
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The captives aren’t mentioned in the Old Testament, it’s mentioned in the New Testament only.

My question to you is, in Ephesians 4:8 who were the captives that Jesus ascended with?

Ephesians 4:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 This is why it[a] says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives

and gave gifts to his people.”[b]
Eph 4:8 is a quote FROM the old testment Ps 68:18
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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While I totally agree with you that WE ("the Church which is His body") is under no obligation to observe these things (because Christ is the Reality), I do believe that because the grammar is written as: "which ARE [plural; present tense] A SHADOW [singular] of things coming [present tense, participle, plural; (we'd say, '[are] certain-to-come')]" and then because Jesus had said, in Luke 22:30,[15]16,18 [parallel Matt26:29] "16 I will not eat any more thereof [see v.15 'the passover'] UNTIL it BE FULFILLED in the kingdom of God" and "18 I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, UNTIL the kingdom of God shall come," with Mt26:29 saying, "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, UNTIL THAT DAY when I drink it NEW WITH [G3326 - meta - accompanying] YOU in My Father's kingdom."

Once our Rapture takes place, one can see certain things in the "FUTURE aspects" of The Revelation (that is, chpts 4-19 especially, i.e. the 7-yr TRIB years) that pertain to Israel's past that will serve to point "the wise [of Israel]" TO CHRIST JESUS their MESSIAH and His promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, when they are in the midst of the trib; many "timing-markers" [within that text] that will come to make sense to THEM (at that future time). Example: Rev8:1-5 spells out things which are associated with a particular/specific date on the Hebrew calendar-of-events, which timing will align with actual calendar dates that will aid them in that time of great deception (meaning, those who will have come to faith during that time, of course, not those who will not have and refuse to give heed to His Word but disregard it instead).

One more example: "kings went out to battle" and were "crowned" [Rev19] at a very specific time/day (per the OT) and their knowing this fact will shield them from the deceptions that will be assailing them... (a great many other things like this within "The Revelation" supplying specific TIMING CLUES they will come to "understand" [and they will benefit others with this "understanding" as well, meaning the "a great multitude" of the ations/Gentiles and the "Sheep" of the nations/Gentiles, of that future time period).

Another example: Exodus 31:13,17 says the sabbath [7th day] is "A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel forever"... things like that (in Rev)...
Ok, I'm sorry to say, but all of that above is mega confusing and doesn't address the issue. Here again is what you said:

"6. Paul told the Colossians not to let anyone judge them because they were observing
God's sabbaths and feasts because these appointed times are "a shadow of things to come".
Meaning they reveal future events, just like the passover foreshadowed Christ's
sacrifice on the cross.(Colossians 2:16-17)"

My objection, was/is that Paul was not telling the Colossians to not let anyone judge them because they were observing God's Sabbaths, feast, new moons, etc., as you claimed, but just the opposite. What he was telling them was to not let anyone judge them because they were no longer observing those things. Hey! How come you're working on the Sabbath? How come you're eating food that is not unlawful eat? Paul is saying, don't let anyone bother you about those things which were a shadow of what was to come, which is Christ.

This is all supported by all of Paul writings regarding salvation by grace through faith vs. the works of the Law, which could never save anyone. Regarding this, scripture states that "the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law." The law kills us because we can't keep it. Jesus came and fulfilled the law, satisfying it completely. When we believe in Christ we are credited with the fulfillment of the law. In fact, the believer is credited with all that Christ accomplished every believers behalf.

The following is what Peter had to say about the Law, when those of the Pharisaic group were teaching that the Gentile believers had to be circumcised and made to obey the Law of Moses:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the Law of Moses.” So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.

After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days, God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.

Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke (the Law) that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

We are no longer under the law, but are saved by grace through faith. It is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can take credit for salvation.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Ok, I'm sorry to say, but all of that above is mega confusing and doesn't address the issue. Here again is what you said:
[…] My objection, was/is that Paul was not telling the Colossians to not let anyone judge them because they were observing God's Sabbaths, feast, new moons, etc., as you claimed, but just the opposite.
I did not claim that whatsoever.

I said I AGREED with you (that they should not allow anyone to judge them FOR NOT doing these things!) I AGREED. Please note that in my post.


I am only pointing out how the grammar of the verse states that they [those things listed] are said by the Spirit via Paul's pen, to be, "which ARE [present tense, plural] A SHADOW [SINGULAR; aka 'an outline'] OF THINGS COMING [present tense, participle, plural]…" (NOT THAT WE, the Church which is His body, observe them! [those are Israel's "earthly things"... I agreed!])

And then I proceeded to show in Jesus' words in Luke 22:30,16,18 [and parallel] one way how (that is, HOW they "ARE a SHADOW of things COMING")... and in Revelation 8:1-5 another way how... and in correlation of when "kings go out to battle" and are "crowned" being another way how [Rev19 & the specific date given in Scripture for this]… and that there are others (in the "FUTURE aspects" of The Revelation, i.e describing the 7 years of the tribulation period).

That's all I'm pointing out. I am NOT saying those Colossian believers WERE "observing" those listed items, nor that we, the Church, should be... NOTHING LIKE THAT, at ALL! :eek:
 

TheDivineWatermark

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[edit ^ : my posts should have read "plural" at the word "which," and "singular" at the phrase "are a shadow"--a minor error that does not affect my overall point]


Perhaps this will help. Noting the word for "COMING [G3195 (present tense participle)]"... see how it is used in the following passage, and compare it to the point I am making:

Hebrews 11:17-22 [blb] -

17 By faith Abraham, being tested, has offered up Isaac. Even the one having received the promises was offering up his only begotten son, 18 as to whom it was said, “In Isaac your offspring will be reckoned,” 19 having reasoned that God was able even to raise him out from the dead, from where he received him also in a simile. [Abraham believed... that the promises were true and sure]

The Faith of Isaac, Jacob, Joseph

20 By faith also Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning the things coming [G3195 (present tense participle)--this word has the meaning of "CERTAINLY/SURE" to happen].
21 By faith Jacob, dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped on the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, dying, made mention concerning the exodus of the sons of Israel and gave instructions concerning his bones. [the particular place]


Here's a quote by Gaebelein (Hebrews 11 Commentary):

"By faith Isaac and Jacob acted. And Joseph, a stranger in a strange land, yet believing the promises as to the land, reckoned in faith on their fulfillment and thus gave commandment concerning his bones (Genesis 50:25)."

[bold mine]


So I'm just saying that "things coming [G3195 - present tense, participle (things CERTAINLY COMING, because prophesied)]" is stated to be "WHICH [plural] ARE [present tense] A SHADOW [SINGULAR] of THINGS COMING [present tense, participle, plural]"... in the same way

… because they concern Israel (whose "blindness... UNTIL" awaits a specific future time period, and The Revelation is supplying specific "time-markers" throughout [pertaining to their "70th-Week" / 7-yr-trib]).
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Eph 4:8 is a quote FROM the old testment Ps 68:18
Yes and it proves that when Jesus ascended he took the resurrected old testament saints with him. Which proves that the resurrection takes place in two parts. Which proves that sinews coming on the "them dry bones" is a literal resurrection and not the resurrection of Israel in the "last days". Which proves that dispensationalism is built upon BAD THEOLOGY and lies.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Good day Absolutely,

forgive me for jumping in, but I wanted to bring this the following to your attention:

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. "

In the scripture above, Paul is teaching that we are not under the law, but under grace. Jesus disarmed the rulers and authorities (powers of darkness) by meeting the righteous requirements of the law and paying the penalty for sins, so that he fulfilled the law satisfying it completely.

My point is that, Paul did not tell the Colossians "not to let anyone judge them because they were observing God's sabbaths and feast" but was telling them not to let anyone judge them for not observing them as a means for salvation. For those things were all observances of the law, the feasts, abstaining from certain foods, the Sabbaths, New Moons, etc. For these were all observances required by the law.

In other words he is saying to them, don't let anyone judge you because you're eating something that was previously forbidden to eat under the law. Don't let anyone judge you because you're not keeping the things prescribed in the law as a means of salvation, because they were only a shadow of the things to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ, not in the observance of the works of the law.

"For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God."

It's not "all who believe in Christ and keep the works of the law who are made right with God. But those who believe in Christ without trusting in those works of the law.
I actually did not post that. It appeared all by itself. Either my phone or something i did indirectly made it appear.
It was a mile long and i deleted what i could but ran out of time. It doesn't even fit the thread LOL.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Yes and it proves that when Jesus ascended he took the resurrected old testament saints with him. Which proves that the resurrection takes place in two parts. Which proves that sinews coming on the "them dry bones" is a literal resurrection and not the resurrection of Israel in the "last days". Which proves that dispensationalism is built upon BAD THEOLOGY and lies.
Was all readt to hit "like" but the last sentence phohibited.
The way terms are being used we cant even say we are in the church age anymore.

No brainers become lively debate topics
 
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Why does it only work in the pre-trib model? Im not disagreeing, im just asking, i dont understand it
Because the living can not precede the dead. If there is no rapture pretrib and the claim is made that we must endure the GT, and THEN the dead are raised at the end,how is there a rapture of living mid trib?
You need the dead raised first.

I am THE ONLY ONE POINTING THIS OUT.

I never saw it in 30 plus yrs of study until about a yr ago.

Remember...you heard it here first. LOL
 
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Because the living can not precede the dead. If there is no rapture pretrib and the claim is made that we must endure the GT, and THEN the dead are raised at the end,how is there a rapture of living mid trib?
You need the dead raised first.

I am THE ONLY ONE POINTING THIS OUT.

I never saw it in 30 plus yrs of study until about a yr ago.

Remember...you heard it here first. LOL
BTW, postrib is so poorly thought out, that they cant even get a handle on the purpose of the GT.
The church age has to end so the focus can be placed on israel.
That is WHY it is called "ISRAEL'S trouble/or Jacob's trouble"

Pretrib rapture,with each passing revelatory ingrediant is a glorious slam dunk. LOL
IF there were a Rapture at the START of a 7-year tribulation period, then we would be able to calculate the exact date of Jesus's return and appearance in glory to earth, wouldn't we, i.e., 7 years after the date of the Rapture.

But the Bible says that no man knows the hour and even Jesus said that on THAT MATTER ONLY the Father knows the hour and day of Jesus's return.

Mark 13:32-33
But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.Take you heed, watch and pray: FOR YOU KNOW NOT WHEN THE TIME IS.

Therefore there can be NO Rapture at the start of a 7-year tribulation period because we would know how to calculate the day of His return 7 years later.

YehovaYeshua
Once the bride is gathered pretrib satan is empowered to rid the planet of any left behind.
Simultaneously the 4 horsemen are released.
Nobody is going to focus on the outcome for the next 7 yrs. They will be consumed by deception,or running from the AC buggie man. Cave to cave starving to death.

But it cuts both ways. Once the 4 horsemen are released,the supposed church on earth can calculate the supposed postrib rapture.
So that component works heavily against the notion of a post trib rapture.

Win,win for pretrib.
 
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True..

The Rapture happens on the day of the return of our LORD Jesus Christ... That's after the tribulation.. At the final trumpet..
What rapture?
The one in rev 14?:eek:

Again rev 14 speaks against "NOONE KNOWS THE DAY"

Postrib rapture has no basis.
None
 
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I would say you’re right about “until further information is disclosed”.

Mar 13:30 (KJV) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

We can know for sure it’s already happened and no I don’t think Jesus the exact day and hour he would be crucified and raised.

How much more clearer can Jesus make it that he was talking about those things happening around his death and resurrection?

The fig tree putting forth leaves.
Fig tree casting its untimely fruit.
This generation shall not pass.
Jesus as a man not knowing the day or hour.
Lest suddenly he finds you sleeping.

Seriosly what more could have said without out and out saying it?
Are you defending amil?
Preterism?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Amil
Preterism.

Take both and ask why rev 14 should be in the bible.
A rapture during the supposed historical GT.

( Which is impossible for any amil/preterism traction)
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Wow,no wonder only pretribs can adhere to rev 14.

One verse destroying false doctrine.
Kinda nifty

Absolutely!
 
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Another way to put it. ...there can be no dead in christ raised after the GT
Why?
Because we have a rapture of living during the gt in rev 14
 
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Was all readt to hit "like" but the last sentence phohibited.
The way terms are being used we cant even say we are in the church age anymore.

No brainers become lively debate topics
Sorry I didn't understand that. :)
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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I have a question: How does pre-trib rapture fit with wheat and tares? I was told its about the millennium but proof that its not is that the disciples are already asking back them if we should go and pluck the tares.
 
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Are you defending amil?
Preterism?
I'm saying that not every mention of Christ returning always points to the return of Christ at the end of time. Sometimes when Jesus said he was returning, he was talking about returning from the grave. I"m not really defending amil or preterism.