Not By Works
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I believe that although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in and enables us, (John 6:44,65) we would NEVER come to believe in Christ for salvation all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by God the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
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Yup compatibalist free will is what i'd categorize myself under.
You know whats funny, I had to google that word and on wikipedia it mentions that it was the point of view taken by the ancient "stoics". (another word I had to google, lol)
I have been called stoic in real life by some peopel that know me! How interesting of a coincidence!
You know whats funny, I had to google that word and on wikipedia it mentions that it was the point of view taken by the ancient "stoics". (another word I had to google, lol)
I have been called stoic in real life by some peopel that know me! How interesting of a coincidence!
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So you teach "greasy preservation" which is not forever, in opposition to Psalm 37:28? 
Preserved IN Christ Jesus means just that and how long are believers preserved in Christ Jesus? FOREVER.
Believers are IN Christ Jesus. Unbelievers are NOT in Christ Jesus. Simple!
Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
Preserved IN Christ Jesus means just that and how long are believers preserved in Christ Jesus? FOREVER.
Believers are IN Christ Jesus. Unbelievers are NOT in Christ Jesus. Simple!
Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
I believe the bible teaches that our obedience is required for "Discipleship" and to fulfill the Great Commission, but that obedience is not a requirement to tack on to our eternal salvation, would you agree.
1) The doctrine of salvation; how must we be saved, and 2) Discipleship; as a student which will require obedience; are two separate and distinct issues of the Christian life and these biblical terms should be viewed and defined separately.
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments." John14:15: These words "keep my commands", are spoken of Jesus to His disciples. How God saves the true believer and our obedience as a disciple of Jesus Christ are separate issues; Apples and Oranges.
Definition: Disciple: a learner, student or pupil.
Secular: Someone who accepts and helps spread the teachings of a famous person. Merriam-Webster
Biblical: Disciple; Gk. transliteration; mathetes, phonetically 'math-ay-tes', (noun/m). a learner, disciple, pupil.
Greek: mathētḗs; from math - "The mental effort needed to think something through." - properly, a learner,
a disciple, a follower of Christ who learns the doctrines of scripture and the lifestyle they require; someone
catechized with proper instruction from the bible with its necessary follow-through, life applications. (Strongs).
HELPS Word-studies
Strong's Concordance
sótér: a savior, deliverer
Original Word: σωτήρ, ῆρος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sótér
Phonetic Spelling: (so-tare')
Sotierology: ("the study of salvation through Christ").
(a masculine noun, derived from 4982 /sṓzō, "save") – properly, the Savior, Jesus Christ who saves believers from their sins and delivers them into His safety. See 4982 (sōzō).
("Savior") is the root of the theological term,
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Sounds like you are like me.
I only believe in 3 pedals of the Calvinist Tulip, so the CALVINIST will not ACCEPT me.
ALSO, because of those same Beliefs, the ARMENIANS will not ACCEPT me.
So what can they call ME? JUST AS CHRISTIAN.
I have found that when TWO SIDES of an on going ARGUMENT, such ARMENIANS vs. CALVINISM, butt heads as often as those two do;
THE TRUTH LIES SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN the TWO SIDES OF THAT ARGUMENT.
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We could never be "obedient enough" to earn our salvation and obedience/works is the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it and also, obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. (1 John 3:7-10)
Just as there is a difference between justification and ongoing sanctification, which often get mixed up by works-salvationists.
Believers keep His commandments (which does not mean sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time) because they are saved and not in order to become saved. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Just as there is a difference between justification and ongoing sanctification, which often get mixed up by works-salvationists.
Believers keep His commandments (which does not mean sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time) because they are saved and not in order to become saved. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
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Thank the Lord for simplicity...
There are two trees in the garden of our heart. One will have the axe applied by the gardener when it's rejected by the owner.
So which tree will we continue to eat of? The one that is dead or maybe in the dying process? Or the one that is teeming with life and resulting fruit? Obedience is to eat of Him.
So what does this mean? All these fancy words that aren't in scripture. Head knowledge that puffs up without experiences. If we are eating, we are what we eat.
There are two trees in the garden of our heart. One will have the axe applied by the gardener when it's rejected by the owner.
So which tree will we continue to eat of? The one that is dead or maybe in the dying process? Or the one that is teeming with life and resulting fruit? Obedience is to eat of Him.
So what does this mean? All these fancy words that aren't in scripture. Head knowledge that puffs up without experiences. If we are eating, we are what we eat.
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WHAT POINTS OF THE FIVE POINTS OF CALVINISM TULIP DO I DISAGREE WITH:
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23). TRUTH
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21). ERROR
In my opinion it is a dangerous doctrine when you choose to LIMIT GOD to what HE CAN DO and CANNOT DO. That becomes abundantly Clear when you consider verses like these:
Luke 1:37 (NIV)
37 For nothing is impossible with God."
2 Peter 3:9 (NCV)
9 The Lord is not slow in doing what he promised—the way some people understand slowness. But God is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to be lost, but he wants all people to change their hearts and lives.
So, I am convinced that GOD has predestined Those you know are saved, and some of those you do not think they are saved. Be careful NOT to discount anyone, because you could find when you get before the throne of Grace, People on either side of you, who you thought GOD COULD NOT SAVE.
So whether or not GOD CAN LOOK DOWN THROUGH TIME and GIVE SALVATION to those making a sincere Confession and Thereby RECEIVING JESUS AS LORD; OR that GOD in HIS OMNIPRESENCE is at EVERY SINGLE CONVERSION at the same time; GOD CAN DO THAT.
NO, that is NOT WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS, you have forgotten this VERSE:
1 Corinthians 12:3 (NCV)
3 So I want you to understand that no one who is speaking with the help of God’s Spirit says, “Jesus be cursed.“ And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,“ without the help of the Holy Spirit. [ 🡸 Sincerely meaning that confession from the Heart.]
Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all). ERROR
NOW that statement is SO WRONG, I cannot believe the CALVINISTS did not change it the weekend after it came out in print. IT DEFIES WHAT GOD HAS SAID.
1 John 2:2 (NIV)
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (NIV)
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Mark 3:28-29 (NASB)
28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"—
DO YOU SEE IT ? There is the ONLY SIN that anybody is sentenced to HADES/HELL for. Adolf Hitler was not sentenced to HADES/HELL for the TREMENDOUS EVIL HE DID, he was sentenced there for REJECTING CHRIST. The Holy Spirit's Primary function is to work on every single human heart, trying to get us to the point that we can BELIEVE in CHRIST, the MESSIAH. When YOU REJECT THAT, you have committed the ETERNAL SIN, in that you have REJECTED what the Holy Spirit is Trying to get us to BELIEVE ABOUT CHRIST.
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37). TRUTH
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return. TRUTH
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23). TRUTH
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21). ERROR
In my opinion it is a dangerous doctrine when you choose to LIMIT GOD to what HE CAN DO and CANNOT DO. That becomes abundantly Clear when you consider verses like these:
Luke 1:37 (NIV)
37 For nothing is impossible with God."
2 Peter 3:9 (NCV)
9 The Lord is not slow in doing what he promised—the way some people understand slowness. But God is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to be lost, but he wants all people to change their hearts and lives.
So, I am convinced that GOD has predestined Those you know are saved, and some of those you do not think they are saved. Be careful NOT to discount anyone, because you could find when you get before the throne of Grace, People on either side of you, who you thought GOD COULD NOT SAVE.
So whether or not GOD CAN LOOK DOWN THROUGH TIME and GIVE SALVATION to those making a sincere Confession and Thereby RECEIVING JESUS AS LORD; OR that GOD in HIS OMNIPRESENCE is at EVERY SINGLE CONVERSION at the same time; GOD CAN DO THAT.
NO, that is NOT WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS, you have forgotten this VERSE:
1 Corinthians 12:3 (NCV)
3 So I want you to understand that no one who is speaking with the help of God’s Spirit says, “Jesus be cursed.“ And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,“ without the help of the Holy Spirit. [ 🡸 Sincerely meaning that confession from the Heart.]
Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all). ERROR
NOW that statement is SO WRONG, I cannot believe the CALVINISTS did not change it the weekend after it came out in print. IT DEFIES WHAT GOD HAS SAID.
1 John 2:2 (NIV)
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (NIV)
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Mark 3:28-29 (NASB)
28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"—
DO YOU SEE IT ? There is the ONLY SIN that anybody is sentenced to HADES/HELL for. Adolf Hitler was not sentenced to HADES/HELL for the TREMENDOUS EVIL HE DID, he was sentenced there for REJECTING CHRIST. The Holy Spirit's Primary function is to work on every single human heart, trying to get us to the point that we can BELIEVE in CHRIST, the MESSIAH. When YOU REJECT THAT, you have committed the ETERNAL SIN, in that you have REJECTED what the Holy Spirit is Trying to get us to BELIEVE ABOUT CHRIST.
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37). TRUTH
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return. TRUTH
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You don't know enough about Perseverance of the Saints.
If you did, you'd agree with me in a split second.
Also, where is the assurance?
If you know calvinism well, you'd understand that no one is assured of their salvation till the end of their days.
Read more.
Find out more.
You don't know enough, and I'm not the one to teach you --- thankfully.
If you did, you'd agree with me in a split second.
Also, where is the assurance?
If you know calvinism well, you'd understand that no one is assured of their salvation till the end of their days.
Read more.
Find out more.
You don't know enough, and I'm not the one to teach you --- thankfully.
So you teach "greasy preservation" which is not forever, in opposition to Psalm 37:28?
Preserved IN Christ Jesus means just that and how long are believers preserved in Christ Jesus? FOREVER.
Believers are IN Christ Jesus. Unbelievers are NOT in Christ Jesus. Simple!
Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
Preserved IN Christ Jesus means just that and how long are believers preserved in Christ Jesus? FOREVER.
Believers are IN Christ Jesus. Unbelievers are NOT in Christ Jesus. Simple!
Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
I noticed that whenever someone speaks or teach about obedience to God, you and the others who believe in OSAS would quickly say that they are working for their own salvation, call them Pharisees, sinless perfectionists and several other names for whatever reason or intent. What confuses me is when your group say that only genuine believers or born again will or can obey the commandments, but If I and others who don't agree with you will say that we obey the commandments and teach others to do so, we are not genuine believers and have no FAITH.
You are saying that you obey Him because you love Him and I agree to that because it is written that if we love Him we should obey His commands. What really bothers me is how this can apply to you who says that Faith ALONE saves without any sort of righteous works including obedience to God, and not to me and those who boldly state and promote obedience to God's laws and commands as being part of His own words and teachings....Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” Mark 7:6-17
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. 1 Corinthians 4:5
I believe that the free gift is eternal life IN Jesus.(romans 6:23) We should be IN Christ Jesus to get eternal life.
...what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to ENTER LIFE, obey the commandments.” matthew 19:16-17
Jesus is the LIFE that we must ENTER (john 14:6) and if we want to be IN Jesus we must obey the commandments.
How would we know that we are IN Jesus?
This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. (1 john 2:1-6)
Jesus is the author of eternal salvation for those who OBEY Him.
...and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him hebrews 5:7-10
FAITH AND OBEDIENCE ARE BOTH ESSENTIAL TO SALVATION.
...And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.hebrews 11:6
...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. james 2:26
And again, we know that we are IN HIM if we obey the commandments and WALK AS JESUS did. (1 john 2:3-6)
...For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE ON HIM, but also to suffer for him, Philippians 1:29
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Oy vey!
This 'triggers' me as they say these days.
I will again point to a bible teacher; David Pawson, he is on his last days now and he still doesnt seem SURE he is saved! I cant remember verbatim what he said, but its in his sermon "believers in hell" or something like that.
He was nervous about going to meet God soon and was hoping to make it, i got the idea he wasnt so sure.
That is SAD. I almost cried as I watched it, poor man has dedicated all his life to teaching the Bible and preaching, yet still isnt sure he is saved.
Thats what false doctrine can do.
The TWO most important things for YOUR LIFE(By your i mean EVERYONE reading this) in this world are:
1. KNOW that you are saved.
2. KNOW that you are in the will of God in your life.
if you got those two things, you are smooth sailing
This 'triggers' me as they say these days.
I will again point to a bible teacher; David Pawson, he is on his last days now and he still doesnt seem SURE he is saved! I cant remember verbatim what he said, but its in his sermon "believers in hell" or something like that.
He was nervous about going to meet God soon and was hoping to make it, i got the idea he wasnt so sure.
That is SAD. I almost cried as I watched it, poor man has dedicated all his life to teaching the Bible and preaching, yet still isnt sure he is saved.
Thats what false doctrine can do.
The TWO most important things for YOUR LIFE(By your i mean EVERYONE reading this) in this world are:
1. KNOW that you are saved.
2. KNOW that you are in the will of God in your life.
if you got those two things, you are smooth sailing
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That's the problem H...
Calvinists can never be absolutely sure they're saved.
Why?
For the very reason that they believe it's God that chooses them...
So if they have any doubt, how can they BE SURE God really did choose them??
They can only be sure if they feel the leading of the Holy Spirit....but how can they know the Holy Spirit will still be there 10 years from now, or at the time of their death?
WE, instead, that believe we get to choose if we want to follow God, can be sure about our salvation because it's US, individually, that decide to STAY and ABIDE IN Jesus.
This is a big problem in calvinism. John Piper could not reassure a girl that phoned him who thought she was lost. He actually told her that if she thought she might be...then maybe she was!! She was heart-broken.
I understand that you're not a full-fledged calvinist, but I cannot like the God they serve.
He's a rather mean God....even a tricky God. But let's not get too much into this.
Calvinists can never be absolutely sure they're saved.
Why?
For the very reason that they believe it's God that chooses them...
So if they have any doubt, how can they BE SURE God really did choose them??
They can only be sure if they feel the leading of the Holy Spirit....but how can they know the Holy Spirit will still be there 10 years from now, or at the time of their death?
WE, instead, that believe we get to choose if we want to follow God, can be sure about our salvation because it's US, individually, that decide to STAY and ABIDE IN Jesus.
This is a big problem in calvinism. John Piper could not reassure a girl that phoned him who thought she was lost. He actually told her that if she thought she might be...then maybe she was!! She was heart-broken.
I understand that you're not a full-fledged calvinist, but I cannot like the God they serve.
He's a rather mean God....even a tricky God. But let's not get too much into this.
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