Why I no longer believe in the penal substitution theory of the Atonement

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

You rock Angela! But I fear this guy has even bigger problems. Like not believing Jesus is our propitiation.

This is not the Gospel UNTO Salvation.
Are you open to the One True Gospel, or is your mind made up on what you think is the Gospel?

Jesus came to save the lost, who KNOW they are lost, in need of a Savior, and only He can save them.

He did not come to save the "righteous" or those that think THEIR WORKS AND WALK can save them. Physician heal thy self!

I get angry at blasphemy, true! I hate it when people who can't even write well in English, make up a doctrine which is based on English, and no understanding or having a clue about Greek verbs! Anyone inventing doctrines, better have a solid grasp of Greek, or else! Or they will go far astray from the truth. Like you have.

You don't have to have any degree at all. But, yes, you need to be taught the rules on how to understand Greek, which is very different than English. Like making John 3:17 into future TENSE, when it is the subjective, which NEVER has time, but is something quite different.

For instance, you could take on-line courses from Bill Mounce. Our seminary used his first year materials, and I took an independent on-line second year Greek from him. Which I needed for credit to get into my PhD program. But, you would not need it for credit. You could just learn, to show yourself a worker approved.

My point was that is you don't understand the basics of spelling and grammar in English, how can you possibly make up theology which never refers to Greek? ALL theologians need to have Greek and Hebrew. But you have never taken the time to learn those languages, so really, anything you say is subject to skepticism.

Yes, I do believe in eternal security. I do not believe we can lose our salvation.But that isn't the issue! There are Aminians on this thread who do believe you can lose your salvation. In another thread, we might be arguing. Instead, we are all united against these false doctrines you are posting. I do believe we have to walk with God, and obey him, after we are justified. If we are not, were we ever saved?

But, you have invented a false doctrine, which almost everyone on this thread sees as wrong and blasphemous. My point, is that you simply cannot make up a doctrine, without being able to look at the Greek and understand it. Especially the totally wrong nonsense you made up. That is why I tore apart your proof text. Because your hermeneutics was completely wrong. Or the weirdo website you learned it on.

And I can tear apart each wrong thing you say, forever! That is because I did study to show myself approved. I didn't think I was God's gift to theology, and just make up wrong things. I still don't make up theology. I am not at that level, although the more I read and understand, maybe by the time I get to my 300 page dissertation, I will have some startling new theological contributions. Or not!

So, no hate! Just showing you in Greek how wrong you are. If you can't take the heat, you better get out of the kitchen.

I know I should have started with that, but I just cannot watch videos like that. So, I took something pretty basic in Greek, to point out where he was wrong. And something basic to his nonsense.

Ironically, "Penal Substitution" or "propitiation" was our sermon this morning! It was good preaching, but not the level of teaching I like. Perhaps I will tackle it, when I am finished 4 more 35 pg papers in theology! Aghh!

If you read Apostle Paul's letters, you realized he almost never mentioned anything about Jesus's earthly ministry? Why do you think he focused so much on the DBR of Jesus instead?[/QUOTE]
Well Christians were being persecuted and killed when Paul was spreading the good news. So it makes sense to focus on the gift of eternal salvation when we leave this earth. Thats what makes sense when Paul reassures us that Jesus is risen. We too can look for the same outcome when our bodies die. Because our faith lies in Christ. And if He is risen then we can expect the same salvation through Christ.

But Paul taught alot. Hes my favorite apostle. Look what he wrote in Romans 8.
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

HEIRS WITH CHRIST

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

So you see how verse 9 says if the Holy Spirit really dwells in us than we wont be seeking things of the flesh? We will live in the Spirit and do things that please God. Paul breaks it down what a Christian and born again really is. You will be lead by the Spirit and put away the old man the sinful man. All things become new. These have the reassurance of salvation. Paul did not suffer in vain. And neither do anyone who follows Christ and lives a Holy life.

Thats just crazy. How can you not lose your salvation? So according to you a believing homosexual can go to heaven? Or how about an idolater catholic who does santeria and rituals? The list goes on, according to you they cant lose their salvation? How about Ted Bundy? According to you Ted Bundy is in heaven?

Or a supposed born again Christian that denies Christ's atoning Sacrifice....

Denies Chr How about this PenEd. If I chose to live unrighteous would that be ok? Since Christ paid for my sin what stops me from just doing evil?

I do believe Jesus is a believers propitation. Its because of Him that I am able to receive mercy. I dont deserve mercy, no one does. No one is righteous or good only God is good. There isnt works we can do to earn salvation. Salvation is a gift. But do we repay the good gift of salvation with evil? And call ourselves righteous?

Whats to stop you from bashing my brains in? How about restraint of the Holy Spirit if you are indeed a born again Christian. Like I said Ted Bundy. Who wouldnt have wanted to beat his brains in? But would a good Christian do so? When we are taught to walk in love and forgive?

Funny, I distinctly said you have to follow and obey God. But not as a work, but out of love of Christ, and his redeeming work in the cross.

So, a practising homosexual is not obeying Christ.

Any Catholic is not obeying God, not trusting in Christ, but rather Mary, the pope, the priest.

As for syncretic Catholicism, don't go there! Totally false, based on multiple falsehoods. Not obeying Christ, let alone believing in him.

Ted Bundy? A multiple murderer. A psychopath. Can't trust in Christ and obey him by nature. Definitely not saved. Well, unless God knows differently. Certainly he can do what he wants, if it is consistent with his Word and character.

You don't have many reading skills or critical thinking skills, either. If you want to take people on, form doctrine, etc, you need to step back, stop being so arrogant, stop insulting every member in this forum, and bring up your level of education.

A lot of people have it naturally, they don't need to get educated. Or perhaps they are educated? But you need to back off and learn some basic hermeneutics, how to read and write, then we can discuss things properly.

I have no time left for you. This post I quoted indicates to me you might have other issues to deal with.

And I am so glad Jesus saved me 38 years ago, and has always kept me in his care and love! Too bad you don't understand the character of God. You are totally missing the gospel. Which is probably why you deny the truth of the gospel, in every single post!

You don't have many reading skills or critical thinking skills, either. If you want to take people on, form doctrine, etc, you need to step back, stop being so arrogant, stop insulting every member in this forum, and bring up your level of education.

A lot of people have it naturally, they don't need to get educated. Or perhaps they are educated? But you need to back off and learn some basic hermeneutics, how to read and write, then we can discuss things properly.

I have no time left for you. This post I quoted indicates to me you might have other issues to deal with.
[/QUOTE]
I appreciate your honesty Angela. I dont know what your problem with me is, i agree with you about homosexuals and catholics and even Ted Bundy. But im sorry that I dont understand your anger. I didnt ask for your time so you didnt have to give me your time. God bless you Angela.

Actually there is only one sin that will send someone to hell, and that happens to be the only sin the Holy Spirit will ever convict anyone of.

That is the sin of not believing in Jesus. (John 16:8-9, Romans 5:17)

Holy means to be set apart. It does not mean you are spotless.

The above is quite a claim. Holy means nothing unclean or that contaminates is allowed near.
The Lord showed His people that anything regarded as unclean destroyed its holiness.

To become Holy one needed to washed, purified, cleansed.

On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the LORD a lamb a year old without defect,
Lev 23:12

So when God regards something as Holy it is not just set apart, it is purified, cleansed and without defect.

So where do you get the idea that Holy means anything else than that which God has defined it as?

There is an interesting crossing of ideas or convictions here.
One is a bank manager who holds that you have a debt. How you feel about the debt is irrelevant,
but a rich friend will just sort it out.

This is how some want to apply Jesus and the cross in their life.
It is like going to the dentist to have a rotten tooth removed, just what the pastor or priest ordered.

There is another view that says our lostness is so profound, and love so repressed we need God to
show us He forgives us and is prepared to come and rescue us individually, face to face, so that
we repent in sorrow and shame, desiring to know love and life as He delivers and we find as we
follow. But we need an open heart, to surrender all to Him and for Him to make us a new creation,
building within us new ways of behaving and new realities in our lives.

Now is this salvation, there is little talk about debt, though we have a debt, and nothing distant or
far off, but everything about the heart and being transformed at a profound and real level, never to
be the same again.

For me it is the language that seems to talk about something so distant it does not relate, while
Christ meeting us is life changing.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
EPHESIANS 2:8 NASB
Have been is passed tense.

Well Christians were being persecuted and killed when Paul was spreading the good news. So it makes sense to focus on the gift of eternal salvation when we leave this earth. Thats what makes sense when Paul reassures us that Jesus is risen. We too can look for the same outcome when our bodies die. Because our faith lies in Christ. And if He is risen then we can expect the same salvation through Christ.
[/QUOTE]

Nice to hear your opinion. What do you think of this explanation by Paul in the scripture on why he did not focus on Jesus earthly ministry? 2 Cor 5:16

Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.

#1 No, Angela is not angry. Facts often sound harsh if they fly in the face of our own ideology, and point us out to be wrong, especially when they show us to be far from correct.
#2 you don't have to have all the technical training that Angela describes here. All you have to do is read all the scriptures and read them in proper context keep in scope the balance of all the other scriptures.
#3 Her study is valuable to the lay person such as me. We look to work from those in her calling to gain important understanding and convey that understanding to others.
#4 never attempt to undermine a person's calling. Her calling to the intellectual pursuit of technical knowledge is as much a calling as the one who brings the gospel to the remote places of the world. It's that study and research upon which the missionary stands to deliver the gospel in languages remote to his own.
#5 It is the Lord who calls, saves, and issues the will to do, and the faith to believe. He gives understanding, even to the linguistics student who studies, and the theology student.

You speak of God as though he does not know the out come, as if we can some how trick him into some unfortunate idea that he can be mistaken in granting, faith, love, repentance, hope, the will to do his bidding, blessings, correction, desire to serve him, love for him and his chosen, only to have his hopes in us dashed by a sudden walking away and thus the loss of salvation. God is not a fool that we can run a game on him. Your view of God is far to low. God is wise and all knowing and all seeing and the author and finisher of our faith, He cannot fail us, we can not fail him. He works all things to the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose.

His purpose, not ours

6918. qadosh
qadosh: sacred, holy
1 of God, as separate, apart, and so sacred, holy:
a. exalted on theophanic throne
b. separate from human infirmity, impurity, and sin:
c. קְדוֺשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵל = divine name (originating from trisagion, Isaiah 6:3)
2. a. of place, sacred, holy, chambers of priests
b. persons: priests Lev
c. angels
BibleHub https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6918.htm

Holiness is so much more than you are describing.
I think you have miss-understood what Holy is, and scripture is clear,
God is Holy, and anything unclean cannot be in His presence.

This should simply not be a problem. Paul describes the opposites

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4:7

It amazes me such a simple biblical concept can be dismissed like it is
nothing. Holiness and otherness of God is one of the first lessons God laid out.

4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!" And Moses said, "Here I am."
5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground."
Exodus 3:4-5