Why I no longer believe in the penal substitution theory of the Atonement

I noticed how the King believed the prophets and believed what Paul was saying. And the King responds that he almost persuades him to be a Christian. Seems like simply believing is not enough to be a Christian and even King Agrippa had an understanding of this.

In verse 27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Interesting how you could come to that conclusion, which will go against everything that Paul said in his letters. But I can understand the incentives for you to do so, since it would have reinforced your preexisting doctrine about salvation, and how works must follow it..

Well, I don't know how the Greek goes, but if you go by the English. Verse 27 is not sufficient to conclude that the King did believe the prophets and what Paul said. Paul was trying to suggest that to the King and he was hoping the King would verify his point.

But the response showed that he was "almost persuaded", meaning no, I don't think he believed at the end of that passage.

Well dont you agree that works follow the believer that is born again? It is not the works that saves a person, it is works that are done by the person that shows Jesus lives in them.

Take Paul. He stopped persecuting the church he did a complete 180. Thats prrof he wasnt the same person anymore. He was changed by God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Works do not save a person and they will never be sufficient. The law proves we are worthy of death. Catholics cant earn their way into heaven. Its impossible. Works are fruits of what took place in that believer. I can tell you im not the same person since being born again. Its just evident by the transformation. The works are fruit not some token into heaven. It doesnt work that way. What could I possibly do to earn my way into heaven. Thats ridiculous.

Like I have said before, the problem with an argument like "Works do not cause salvation but works follow after salvation, otherwise one is not really saved" is pretty much a circular argument. The argument flows like this

You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.
Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.

I have yet to encounter an argument that can show your point without begging the question. Maybe you can try?

We cant do it on our own. Thats why we needed the Holy Spirit indwell in us to help us overcome the Spiritual war we all face as Christians.

So you believe and therefore are saved is that what you believe? Can I ask where you learned that? And also maybe any insight as to how you really know you are saved? Meaning did you change in the process of becoming a believer?

You dont have to answer if you dont want to. Im just wanting to understand your point of view

My pleasure, salvation has always been by grace thru faith. This was true under law and remains true under grace. Grace is always from God but faith comes from us.

During the dispensation of the law, you exhibit faith by "obeying the law", all the Jews have to obey the law. It is true that all the saints of past ages were saved through the merits of Christ's shed blood, but not through their faith in that shed blood.

Those of past ages were expected to believe only what God had thus far revealed, or what He had revealed to them. In other words, they were saved simply because they trusted God and believed what He said. The full plan of salvation has since been unfolded, but the Scriptures make it crystal clear that these believers were saved without even understanding that Christ would die for them.

When God says, "Sacrifice an animal every time you sin," what will faith do? Just one thing: sacrifice an animal whenever you sin. We know, thanks to Hebrews, that such sacrifices are a mere shadow of the coming Jesus as the final Lamb, yet not one of their hearers would have interpreted this action to mean what it meant in Paul's Gospel: "Trust in the death of Christ for salvation."

But once the age of grace began, this is now what is required to show faith.

"BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21);

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5)

"Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24);

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7);

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5);

"Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9)

When God now says this, what will faith do? Faith will say, "This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."

Trust me when I tell you, everyone else from the Old Testament, King David, Noah, even the 4 Gospels guys such as Peter, James and John, will be very envious about you.

Their conditions for showing faith were not as simple as what we have to do, under the age of Grace.

1. Noah had to build an ark. (Hebrews 11:7)
2. Abel had to bring the correct sacrifice (Gen 4:4-5, Heb. 11:4)
3. Abraham had to believe, at his advanced years, that God would make him a father of many (Genesis 15:5-6)
4. Rahab had to hide the spies, at the risk of being caught and punished (Hebrews 11:31)

The point is that, by the time it reach us Gentiles, thanks to Jesus ushering the age of Grace, all we need to do, in order to display faith, is simply believing and speaking.

So you dont agree with works? You sharing with me what you shared is works. You shared the gospel with me. You have been very respectful unlike some other people on here lol That is what I see as works. What we do for others we are doing as to the Lord.

Let me give you a scenario. Suppose you wake up one morning and everything went wrong for you

You quarreled with your wife.

You kicked the dog

Your kids scream at you and say correctly that you are a bad Father.

On the way to work, someone cuts into your lane while driving and you let us a cuss word out of anger.

And so on and so forth.

The moment you reach the workplace, you feel very bad about all these "bad things" that you have done.

Suddenly, your colleague ask you to pray for him, because he knows you are a Christian, he is sick and he wants you to pray that he will recover. Would you be

Most eager to pray for him, being confident that God will use you mightily to heal him?

Feeling awkward and tell him, "sorry today is not a good day"?

If you lean more towards the second one, you believe that works, or the lack of it, has something to do with your faith.

Amen! Thanks for your affirmation. For me, yes, I would like to reach a point where I am neither conscious of doing good works, and conversely, not even conscious of whether I committed any works of the flesh. The latter is biblical (Hebrews 10:2).

So the example I gave in another thread.



I hope to reach a stage where, because I am no longer conscious of works of the flesh, I am always believing that God loves me and that my prayers are effective because I am a righteous man.

So yes, works will flow, but I am not even conscious of those good works in the first place.

I see what you mean. But can I ask you a question? Just to open up a bit further. Using the same scenario.
All he has to do is call out to God and ask for forgiveness and ask God to turn his life around. God will not leave us. He came to give us life and a life more abundant. All we have to do is give our life over to God and let God be in charge.

So before he can pray for his co-worker all he has to do is make things right with the Lord. And the Lord is merciful and will answer our prayers. A phone call or text to his wife to let her know he is sorry. Not just inwardly asking for forgiveness but outwardly showing ourselves to be humble.

Then you can pray with your co-worker who probably needs Jesus anyways if hes only asking because he knows youre a Christian. And im sure the person must have professed his faith to his co-worker if they are coming to him.. (this story isnt you is it lol)

When was the devine wrapped in flesh? Scripture does not say that. That is mans interpretation and adding to the scripture. John 1:14 the Word became flesh. The Word being Gods Living Word. Became flesh. Jesus told us I am the living bread that came down from heaven. This bread is His flesh. So His flesh came from heaven and the Word became flesh. Why do preachers teach that God Almighty became wrapped in flesh? God Almighty never left the throne. It was His Word that took on life in the form of a man. We know Him as the Son of God or the Son of Man. God Almighty. Jesus spoke all that His Father taught Him. In Him was no deceit nor any sin. The Word of God is perfect and the Father is well pleased in His Word. God the Father is the source, the Word is His utterance and how He commanded everything into existance (John 1) the living word and His Holy Spirit is His Spirit that He has poured out onto His saints which are heirs with Christ. Part of Gods family children of God the Most High.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Penal substitution is a lie. Its a false doctrine or what the bible refers to as doctrine of demons.

No I believe there is only One God. The book of Isaiah clearly points out that besides God there is no other. God is One. Him having Word and Spirit makes Him still One. We also have speech and a spirit and a body. We are still human in singular form.

Can I ask you a person question? What is it about the gospel that I shared that hurt your eyes? The turn from sin part? Im thinking maybe you have a secret sin that you refuse to let go of. And hearing this hurt your eyes so bad. Are you homosexual?

You REALLY need to reexamine your beliefs. Saying God did not become flesh in the form of His Son Jesus Christ is from the spirit of antichrist.

1 John 4 New International Version (NIV)
On Denying the Incarnation
4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.




This IS the CORE of the Gospel. You have believed a false gospel. Not sure which spirit you received but this and the following from you is not from the Holy Spirit!
Hebrews 2:17
17 Therefore he had nto be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest pin the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
1 John 4:10
10 In this is love, not that we have loved God nbut that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

AND MANY OTHER PLACES





Would you like to hear the One True Gospel so as to become a Child of God?

I am a child of God. What are you not understanding? Because I told you Jesus is not the Father. When you say God made flesh, im assuming you are talking about the Father? If this is what you believe I disagree. Jesus always said His Father who is in Heaven.

So no God did not come down in flesh, the Word was made flesh. The Word is Jesus. The Word is the son of God. The Word was begotten of the Father. The Word was with God and the Word was God. Because He is Gods Word. What else could the Word be other than God. But Jesus said the Father is greater than I. If the Father was mute and the Word ceased to exist (hypothetical) God the Father would still be IAM.

God the Father is the creator. He did not come down in the flesh. His Word became flesh. His Word is every bit of God but it is not the Father. Though Jesus being in the form of God did not see it as robbery to be equal to God. The Word was tempted to worship Satan. God cannot be tempted. God cannot die. God is all knowing, only the Father knows the hour, not even the Son knows the hour. Jesus was taught by God. God has no teacher. Who can counsel God?

Study your bible sir.

I like the point you are drawing out.
Jesus, Gods message, His essence, His creative force made human, is not the Father, but a human, who had
a birth and a death. My way of picturing this is Gods nature, His approaches, His heart was what Jesus was,
but without the attributes of the Father, His omnipresence, His knowledge, His being outside time.

So we cannot fully know how Jesus connected with the Father except in their hearts they were one.
Jesus answered some important issues. God can walk perfectly with human limitations. He can make
friends with men and have a normal interaction as equals, and they can know His heart.

He can submit to evil men and allow them to kill Him and then forgive them, so we too can be forgiven.
In a way Jesus is the ideal us, what we can be in communion and full of the Holy Spirit, our hope and our
expectation.

Exploring these aspects of Jesus upsets many, because they often feel one is taking away His divinity,
or His status, when Jesus Himself chose these very limitations to show us who He really is.

In John 1 when we learn about Jesus and who He is, it shows us Jesus was there since the beginning. Genesis doesnt point that out because it was all about the Father our creator and His glory. But Jesus was there since the beginning.

All was made through the Word and without Him was not anything made that was made. So Jesus the Word of God being God. Because God begot the Word.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jesus was in Gods bosom. Begotten. From the beginning. In Genesis we see God spoke everything to life. Gods speach has life. Jesus is that life. Jesus is Gods spoken Word. The Living Word. He told us only the Son has seen the Father.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

The glory which He had with God the Father before the world was! Jesus is not a liar. Jesus is the Word. And in the beginning the Word was with God.

I am a child of God. What are you not understanding? Because I told you Jesus is not the Father. When you say God made flesh, im assuming you are talking about the Father? If this is what you believe I disagree. Jesus always said His Father who is in Heaven.

So no God did not come down in flesh, the Word was made flesh. The Word is Jesus. The Word is the son of God. The Word was begotten of the Father. The Word was with God and the Word was God. Because He is Gods Word. What else could the Word be other than God. But Jesus said the Father is greater than I. If the Father was mute and the Word ceased to exist (hypothetical) God the Father would still be IAM.

God the Father is the creator. He did not come down in the flesh. His Word became flesh. His Word is every bit of God but it is not the Father. Though Jesus being in the form of God did not see it as robbery to be equal to God. The Word was tempted to worship Satan. God cannot be tempted. God cannot die. God is all knowing, only the Father knows the hour, not even the Son knows the hour. Jesus was taught by God. God has no teacher. Who can counsel God?

Study your bible sir.

John 10:30 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 I and My Father are one.”

John 14:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 17:21 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

John 8:24 New King James Version (NKJV)
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”


Please don't die in your sins. Confess that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh come to pay the debt YOU owe for YOUR sins, and rose again on the 3rd day!!!

How can you not understand Jesus and who He is? You seem blind. Ive already told you the spirit that is in you is not of God. You have a spirit of confusion. God is not the author of confusion.

Let me point out in the verses you chose:

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Here are some to add:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Father and the Son these are one. They are in eachother. And If we allow God into our heart we also will be one in Christ.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

These are His and these are heirs with Christ. So who are you? Im a child of God. And I know who my Father is. He reveals Himself to those who love Him. This aint hermenutics. The Holy Spirit leads us to understanding. So are you still blind? Lay your pride down and humble yourself.

You could have said "The red platypus jumps on mars to read Shakespeare" and it would have made more sense than what you wrote here.

You tried to insult me, and then reposted the verses I posted for what purpose?... To Prove that you need to become a Born again Child of God?

If that was your intent I agree!! Please don't die in your sins!

Hey im done with you. Im not going to be drawn into whatever youre about. Can you share for anyone reading your words what doctrine or denomination you belong to? Thanks and good luck with that shakespeare.