Not By Works

Greetings VCO,

I agree wholeheartedly. And thank you for that.

There are so many entries in the forums where there are flat out arguments about what Jesus and many of His apostles are saying vs what Paul is saying. And yes, these arguments are based upon our ignorance or lack of understanding of one or both verses.

Even Peter had to declare regarding Paul:

2Pe 3:16-18 NIV He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (17) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. (18) But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

Do you find it odd that Peter focuses his warning regarding the confusion in Paul's letters to the topic of the error of lawlessness? This is what we all seem to be circling around. And in the same stroke of the pen Peter mentions, "But grow in grace and knowledge"! Does in not seem that Peter is counseling the intertwining of Grace and the Law?

I have no "dog in the fight" but the truth, When I enter the congregation of the saints I always establish the groundwork that the Holy Spirit dictates all truths, and that heavy handed doctrinal biases sideline growing in knowledge every time.

I love the passion of many on this forum, although I believe it is misdirected, but again I take my guidance from the Holy Spirit and that guidance rarely if ever comes in the form of anger or hostility or coercive threats. That is not to say that it does not come from discussion and study with fellow beleivers. So, anyone who wishes to prove a point under this spirit must ask; "is this the Holy Spirit guiding my effort?"

Sorry to bloviate again, but for the good of the Kingdom of Heaven we should all learn civility, so that we might all have a forum that promotes Growing in grace and knowledge.

Amen

We work for a wage, and boast of that wage (if we are good enough)

Salvation is a gift, Paid for by the work of God, and only received in faith, So that NO ONE may boast. I think it was paul who said, he boasts in no one but Christ.

Just for the record

Working out your own salvation is working out the power that is ALREADY inside you. It is NOT working to EARN salvation. If that was what Paul meant, he would have worded it differently

peter usually masked his deceptions with semantics to justify them to himself


but gardener said


"I am new here, never posted under any other account. "


in my opinion peter would say something closer to

"Why do you ask? Have I not said this is my only account?"

if someone asked him if he has ever been a member here other another name

To all you young Christians here who are following the attacks, and I use this word literally, on anyone who asks questions or offers thoughts on spiritual matters, note the rudeness and calousness of these individuals and then ask if the Spirit of God would be involved in this type of behaviour. Then, if you answer "No", ask what spirit they might be influenced by. Then ask if you want to be under that kind of influence.....

I would be more worried about the truth my friend. If you or anyone else claimed paul and jesus were in opposition or taught different gospels. Thats more dangerous than thinking your being attacked.

And do not think that just because someone disagrees with you it is an attack. (Sadly we have many here who think that,)

Even Jesus and paul had no issue being rude to people. If you think they were attacking them, then something is wrong

Anyway

Ask away, I have not been following along much. What are your questions.. so I can be brought up to speed

If you will receive it, many of you come across strongly as gang of flippant religious thugs. Now maybe you don't want to come across like this, but it's there imho. Where is the humility and sincerity? I'm no where near perfect, less that any of you, but come on!

What is your question?

I made a comment you sounded like an old banned member if that offended you.. Sorry, But then again, if something that small offends you..........

I was speaking to a christian last night, and they held that as we are not under leviticus law,
homosexuality is as a valid expression of love as heterosexual love.

God commands us to have restricted sexual activity within a marriage context between a man
and a woman. This is His standard and anything else threatens the health of all involved, and
dishonours the trust one party has to another, and breaking this trust is worthy of death.

Now the justification of saying homosexual love is ok, is we do not stone children for dishonouring
their parents or have slaves. Again what is forgotten is security came from the family alone, and you
depended on the family unit for survival, undermining this was destroying ones own life.
Slaves though terrible, was better than killing everyone of ones enemy. Every community fought to
the death or to take spoils of war. So slavery resolved the power balance. Also when famines struck
a whole community could have only themselves as labour to sell or die of starvation.

It is therefore dangerous to take our ability to mitigate these issues because of wealth, technology and
civilisation.

Again these same people often say the death penalty should never be executed because we are all
made in the image of God, and have no right to take that away. Except when a community has no resource
to control a murderer and stop their behaviour, execution resolves the social issue, rather than sacrificing more
in the community at the murderers hands.

Why does this all have relevance? Because if you hold our walk is not important or relevant to our faith,
you cannot stand in judgement over anyones elses behaviour, because it is up to them to choose.
As soon as you say we believe in loving behaviour and walking with the Lord, you already agree with the
levitical definitions of sin and good behaviour. It is impossible to have one without the other.

Jesus calls us to a righteous walk, because that walk is His walk and the expression of His heart.

Judges who claim judging is not good, while judging those who would suggest walking in love is
a good thing. Our current cultures ethic is not to get involved in other peoples lives, and they reflect
that our walk with Jesus is personal and always positive, so any sense of guilt or failure is evil.

Could Paul and Jesus be preaching different things?
If you interpret the two differently, then yes.

Interpretation is so difficult, Jesus left it till the disciples where filled with the Holy Spirit before
they started to really understand.

You could argue Jesus was a pharisee, as He said we should obey all that they teach, except we
should not be hypocritical, ie actually do what they teach, which the pharisees did not.

Paul a pharisee showed what Jesus meant, by walking in love, which fulfilled the law.
But equally Paul had Timothy circumcised so as not to offend the jews, by having Timothy
be viewed as a true jew. Paul went to the festival of purification where he was arrested.

The other side Paul said we are not bound to the law, because we are in Jesus.
So this particular point is complicated and easily miss-understood, unless you actually come to
faith in Him.

I do not consider that Post to be Bloviating. You broke it up nicely with Paragraphs and it was easy to follow along. So you took my advise seriously. Thank You.


You used an expression, I have no "dog in the fight", and I know where that expression comes from. In particular, it's a recent example comes from Greyhound Racing, but originally it referred to Hunting Dogs. My Dad used to raise racing greyhounds. If the dogs are not trained to FIX their eyes on the quarry, they will get distracted by the other dogs in the pack. Then they are worthless as a racing or hunting dogs.

That is the way you train a racing greyhound. It is at the Training Track, where you hang a live jack rabbit right beside "RUSTY" (the mechanical Rabbit), and let the dogs in training catch up to "RUSTY" a few times during the race, to get a bite of two in the Live Jack Rabbit. About the fourth time on the training track, YOU TAKE AWAY THE LIVE JACK RABBIT, and NEVER LET THE DOGS CATCH "RUSTY" AGAIN. Or the Dogs will revert their attention to OTHER DOGS in the Race.

In a way, you can use that expression to refer to Born Again Christians, in how we are to train ourselves to FIX OUR EYES ON JESUS. That means we SHOULD ALWAYS:

Hebrews 12:2-3 (NIV)
2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

NOTICE: it says JESUS is the AUTHOR and PERFECTER of our faith; not SELF.

Greetings VCO,

Interesting analogy...

I see your conversation as a building up the saints/Loving your neighbor as yourself..

Mat 5:16 KJV Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Maybe I shouldn't have quoted that one..wouldn't want you to get the evil eye for "good works".

I guess I should explain. We do not tolerate the Authorship of PAUL moving the quill while he wrote down what the Holy Spirit inspired, him to WRITE, that is NOTHING that we think we need to discuss.

If you are an Adventist, who wants to discuss Paul as a VALID APOSTLE, you need to go somewhere else. If you want an argument, I would suggest TOPIX Christian Form, but understand I left there because the because they let way to many Atheist in, and every thread almost turned into knock down, drag out FIGHT between Christians, Psuedo Christians, and Atheists.

Why do we not believe in Keeping the Sabbath?

That commandment was for ISRAEL ONLY to KEEP.


Exodus 31:12-18 (HCSB)
12 The LORD said to Moses:
13 “Tell the Israelites: You must observe My Sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, so that you will know that I am Yahweh who sets you apart.
14 Observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Whoever profanes it must be put to death. If anyone does work on it, that person must be cut off from his people.
15 Work may be done for six days, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, dedicated to the LORD. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
16 The Israelites must observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign forever between Me and the Israelites, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.”
18 When He finished speaking with Moses on Mount Sinai, He gave him the two tablets of the testimony, stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God.


DID HE GIVE A SEPARATE COMMANDMENT TO THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH?

YES!


Hebrews 7:11-22 (NASB)
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek [BOTH High Priest and KING], and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
12 For when the priesthood is changed [from the Tribe of Levi, to the Tribe of Judah], of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.
15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek,
16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life.
17 For it is attested of Him, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."
18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness
19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath
21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");
22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.


What is the NECESSARY CHANGE IN THE THE LAW, from SABBATH KEEPING, TO WANTING TO WORSHIP OF HIM Every Day Alike.

Romans 14:5 (ESV)
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

HERE is the SPECIFIC COMMAND of How we are to Worship HIM IN LOVE.

2 Timothy 2:22 (HCSB)
22 Flee from youthful passions, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

Ephesians 5:17-20 (GWT)
17 So don't be foolish, but understand what the Lord wants.
18 Don't get drunk on wine, which leads to wild living. Instead, be filled with the Spirit
19 by reciting psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs for your own good. Sing and make music to the Lord with your hearts.
20 Always thank God the Father for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

No, we do not pick on Adventist on this tread. It has been our observation that they have a TENDENCY to derail the thread to their private subject, SABBATH. That is always a heated debate of discussing, more often than not, LEADING TO ARGUING. You came across as one of those ALWAYS wanting to discredit PAUL, luring others to not trust the writings of Paul.

I am sure dc will tell you too, we frown on heated debates on:

The Deity of Jesus Christ, - THAT IS A GIVEN.

Doctrine of the Trinity, - THAT IS A GIVEN.

You must be BORN AGAIN, - THAT IS A GIVEN.

The inerrancy of Holy Scripture in the original manuscripts, - THAT IS A GIVEN.

The Sin Nature of Man, - THAT TOO IS A GIVEN.


I am a conservative evangelical, that goes to non-denominational Church.

Please tell us what type of Church you attend. Do not need the Name of the Church, just the Denomination; to see where you fit in, or do not fit in.

Where did that come from?