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We do not receive the Spirit that empowers us to live right, and seals us unto the day of redemption, until we have faith, confess Christ, and repent of our sins.
That is why Paul said we are saved by faith, and not by works, for when we initially confess Christ we are in the flesh not having the Spirit yet, so that is all we can do is have faith, and our works have nothing to do with being saved when we are first saved.
If we receive the Spirit to empower us, and save us, before confessing Christ, then it would not be faith, for faith must be done while the person is still operating by the flesh, for then it is a choice they made.
If we receive the Spirit of Christ first and belong to Christ without confessing Christ then it could be said that OSAS would be true.
But since we receive the Spirit after having faith, confessing Christ, and repenting of our sins, then it can be stated that it is free will, and we make a choice in our salvation.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
The disciples, and those that confessed Jesus, did not receive the Spirit until after Jesus shed His blood, was buried, and resurrected, completing the Gospel.
Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
These people were baptized unto John's baptism, and had not heard that they could receive the Holy Spirit, and then were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and then they received the Spirit.
So they received the Spirit to belong to Christ after they had faith, confessed Christ, and repented.
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
The same as these people, for if they were baptized then they already had faith, confessed Christ, and repented, but they did not receive the Spirit until after they were baptized, not before it.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
These people received the Holy Ghost before baptism, but they already believed before receiving the Spirit.
Since we are saved by faith then we have to have faith, and confess Christ, and repent, before we can receive the Spirit to belong to Christ, for if we receive the Spirit to empower us, and belong to Christ before doing those things, then it is not faith.
If we receive the Spirit to belong to Christ before we confess Christ then OSAS would have a good argument.
Which would be what would happen if God chose them in the beginning for He would make sure that they came to the truth, for they do not have a choice.
But since we do not receive the Spirit to belong to Christ until after we have faith, confess Christ, and repent, then we have free will, and make the choice to receive salvation.
We can claim Christ as our Lord and Savior before we receive the Spirit to belong to Christ, for that is how it will be done, for it is of faith when we first believe
That is why Paul said we are saved by faith, and not by works, for when we initially confess Christ we are in the flesh not having the Spirit yet, so that is all we can do is have faith, and our works have nothing to do with being saved when we are first saved.
If we receive the Spirit to empower us, and save us, before confessing Christ, then it would not be faith, for faith must be done while the person is still operating by the flesh, for then it is a choice they made.
If we receive the Spirit of Christ first and belong to Christ without confessing Christ then it could be said that OSAS would be true.
But since we receive the Spirit after having faith, confessing Christ, and repenting of our sins, then it can be stated that it is free will, and we make a choice in our salvation.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
The disciples, and those that confessed Jesus, did not receive the Spirit until after Jesus shed His blood, was buried, and resurrected, completing the Gospel.
Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
These people were baptized unto John's baptism, and had not heard that they could receive the Holy Spirit, and then were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and then they received the Spirit.
So they received the Spirit to belong to Christ after they had faith, confessed Christ, and repented.
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
The same as these people, for if they were baptized then they already had faith, confessed Christ, and repented, but they did not receive the Spirit until after they were baptized, not before it.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
These people received the Holy Ghost before baptism, but they already believed before receiving the Spirit.
Since we are saved by faith then we have to have faith, and confess Christ, and repent, before we can receive the Spirit to belong to Christ, for if we receive the Spirit to empower us, and belong to Christ before doing those things, then it is not faith.
If we receive the Spirit to belong to Christ before we confess Christ then OSAS would have a good argument.
Which would be what would happen if God chose them in the beginning for He would make sure that they came to the truth, for they do not have a choice.
But since we do not receive the Spirit to belong to Christ until after we have faith, confess Christ, and repent, then we have free will, and make the choice to receive salvation.
We can claim Christ as our Lord and Savior before we receive the Spirit to belong to Christ, for that is how it will be done, for it is of faith when we first believe
P
One of the things that must happen during the salvation process, is the testing ground or parable of the sower.
In your understanding, getting the Spirit of Christ towards the beginning would mean that those 3 out of the 4 soils that fail would fail with the Spirit of Christ in them. I do think it's possible to grieve the Spirit out, but not that often.
In your understanding, getting the Spirit of Christ towards the beginning would mean that those 3 out of the 4 soils that fail would fail with the Spirit of Christ in them. I do think it's possible to grieve the Spirit out, but not that often.
faith from hearing ... hearing through Word of God (Rom 10:17).
Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Paul goes on to show later in Romans that no one 'deserves' eternal life...
Romans 3:9-12,20-24,28 NASBS
[9] What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; [10] as it is written, "There IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; [11] THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; [12] ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
[20] because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. [21] But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, [22] even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
[23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; [28] For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Romans 3:9-12,20-24,28 NASBS
[9] What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; [10] as it is written, "There IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; [11] THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; [12] ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
[20] because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. [21] But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, [22] even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
[23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; [28] For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
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There is such a wide variety of opinions and emotions on the subject of Salvation that it must be a little bit difficult to discern when someone truly understands Gods Word.
I like what you have been saying and I also understand why some would have problems with it initially.
On the one hand Salvation is a gift of God and not of our works.
On the other hand there is a lot of work that needs to be done in order to come to Christ and realize that ALL of your hard work can't get it done. How could you know that your work won't cause your own salvation unless you try first?
How do you know to come to Christ to begin with? You have to know that you need His Help. And once you receive it then you know how all your help is accomplished. Its not by your work, its by the work of Christ. And then scripture starts to open up as well knowing what the Promises are and how they are fulfilled.
I like what you have been saying and I also understand why some would have problems with it initially.
On the one hand Salvation is a gift of God and not of our works.
On the other hand there is a lot of work that needs to be done in order to come to Christ and realize that ALL of your hard work can't get it done. How could you know that your work won't cause your own salvation unless you try first?
How do you know to come to Christ to begin with? You have to know that you need His Help. And once you receive it then you know how all your help is accomplished. Its not by your work, its by the work of Christ. And then scripture starts to open up as well knowing what the Promises are and how they are fulfilled.
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This does not appear Christian, or Biblical at all.
THE Gospel IS God's Word! We are to preach that Gospel to ALL in Love. This post of yours is suspiciously close to THIS:
Matthew 23:13 New King James Version (NKJV)
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves,nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
I understand you aren't preaching a works doctrine, however, God did not appoint you to be gatekeeper of His Word or Gospel.
THE Gospel IS God's Word! We are to preach that Gospel to ALL in Love. This post of yours is suspiciously close to THIS:
Matthew 23:13 New King James Version (NKJV)
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves,nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
I understand you aren't preaching a works doctrine, however, God did not appoint you to be gatekeeper of His Word or Gospel.
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Bingo! I said just about the same thing at my post #39 &41. I also think he believes we do have to work to stay saved, at least that's the impression I get from reading his various threads and posts. In short, he talks like he has made some new discovery that everybody else missed. Even using the word "believe" has no place in his presentation. 
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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P
Not am I claiming to be.
It's a simple discernment, if we don't recognize true NT saving Faith, (faithing) how can we fulfill it or be practicing it? If we are not fulfilling it, admittedly, the Spirit of Christ, Christ, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours to claim yet.
I keep an eye out for those who could be on the right path and just don't realize it, but those ones, when they hear the truth would react with joy, not wanting to destroy it.
Thanks for acknowledging that I'm not sharing a works doctrine. But I am standing on the fact that true NT saving Faith, pisteuo, " A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender," takes alot of work and effort. It's just not work that replaces, adds to , or joins with the finished and completed work of Christ on the cross.
The Faithing that saves, is 95% courage, 4% tenacity, and 1% everything else. A continually surrendered life!
It's a simple discernment, if we don't recognize true NT saving Faith, (faithing) how can we fulfill it or be practicing it? If we are not fulfilling it, admittedly, the Spirit of Christ, Christ, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours to claim yet.
I keep an eye out for those who could be on the right path and just don't realize it, but those ones, when they hear the truth would react with joy, not wanting to destroy it.
Thanks for acknowledging that I'm not sharing a works doctrine. But I am standing on the fact that true NT saving Faith, pisteuo, " A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender," takes alot of work and effort. It's just not work that replaces, adds to , or joins with the finished and completed work of Christ on the cross.
The Faithing that saves, is 95% courage, 4% tenacity, and 1% everything else. A continually surrendered life!
P
I realize I need to repeat some things for those who haven't read this or other threads I have shared.
God repeats the word pisteuo 248 times in the NT. The words believe, believer, and believing, are mistranslations. Complete pisteuo, is a specific act, based upon a specific belief, sustained by a specific kind of confidence. Pisteuo in the Vines Greek dictionary, " A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth."
I was taught, when God repeats Himself, pay extra attention!
God repeats the word pisteuo 248 times in the NT. The words believe, believer, and believing, are mistranslations. Complete pisteuo, is a specific act, based upon a specific belief, sustained by a specific kind of confidence. Pisteuo in the Vines Greek dictionary, " A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth."
I was taught, when God repeats Himself, pay extra attention!
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