Works can NEVER earn salvation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#61
Abel "did" and was accepted.

Cain "did not" and was not accepted.

Clearly it is you who is spinning.

By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. Hebrews 11:4

It was the offering that God spoke well of, not Abel's faith. He was commended as righteous when God spoke well of his offering.

Man, you just don't get it.
Cain offered human good

Abel offered blood

When are you going to stop trying to offer God human good, and accept the shedding of blood?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#62
Yes, we are blessed in that way.

But what could Cain have done before the Cross, to be saved just like Abel was? Everyone can quote that Hebrews 11 passage about Abel but I am asking a simple question, what did Genesis 4:6-7 say?
Cain could have had faith in God. And by this faith, be saved like abel. And through this faith, also do like God asked. Instead of trying to pervert Gods grace and offer human good.

If you notice heb 11. Abel had FAITH, Cain did NOT.

How do we as hmans know who had faith?

Abel did what God asked, Abel rebelled and did his own thing.

 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#63
Cain could have had faith in God. And by this faith, be saved like abel. And through this faith, also do like God asked. Instead of trying to pervert Gods grace and offer human good.

If you notice heb 11. Abel had FAITH, Cain did NOT.

How do we as hmans know who had faith?

Abel did what God asked, Abel rebelled and did his own thing.
God also required Abel to show his faith by offering the correct sacrifice. He told Cain to follow what Abel did, and promised that he will accept Cain if he did so, as stated in Genesis 4:7
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#64
God also required Abel to show his faith by offering the correct sacrifice. He told Cain to follow what Abel did, and promised that he will accept Cain if he did so, as stated in Genesis 4:7
Christ did away with the need for us to make sacrifice, EXCEPT for the sacrifice of our heart. Obviously, by it's very nature, it has to be a Spiritual sacrifice.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,945
8,664
113
#65
Christ did away with the need for us to make sacrifice, EXCEPT for the sacrifice of our heart. Obviously, by it's very nature, it has to be a Spiritual sacrifice.
You mean the heart that is spiritually dead, and incurable wicked? Is that the heart you mean?
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,357
652
113
#66
You have raised a good point At that time, faith must be demonstrated by the correct work, which involves offering an animal sacrifice.

God was gracious enough to give Cain a second chance to offer the right sacrifice. Some interpretation of verse 7 says that God even provided the correct sin offering for him, waiting outside his door. He just need to take it and do the right thing by sacrificing that offering.

But alas Cain would not obey and choose to murder his brother instead. It reminds me of non believers nowadays where they just need to believe in the finished work and cease from their works, but many prefer to work their way to God.
I remember a study that made a case for the actual knife used in Abel’s sacrifice as the weapon used in the killing. The word study was very interesting, and added another dimension to the story.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,357
652
113
#67
1 John 4:20
“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?”

We have to answer these question to know what is the fruit of faith

1. Can a man have faith in God but not love God

2. Can a man love God but not love fellow man

3. Can a man have faith but do not have love

1. I do not think so. If a man have faith in God he must love god, if a man hate God he he do not have faith in God

2. No bible say if a man say love God but not love other he is liar

3. No if a man have faith he must have love or he is liar.

Salvation is by faith alone, but faith that save bear fruit of love, not fruit of hatred. Jesus in a man of faith manifest Himself in love the enemy.

A man of faith will go to the direction into act like Jesus/Christ like
The whole point of James was to contrast “real” faith with pretend faith. He said nothing different, only worded it differently.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#68
The whole point of James was to contrast “real” faith with pretend faith. He said nothing different, only worded it differently.
There is no pretend or spurious faith.

Faith is faith
Just like belief is belief.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#69
There is no pretend or spurious faith.

Faith is faith
Just like belief is belief.
I agree, but---

Faith in Jesus, or in self--

Belief in what Jesus did, or in what self is doing--

The difference is eternal life, and eternal death.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,043
13,050
113
58
#70
I agree, but---

Faith in Jesus, or in self--

Belief in what Jesus did, or in what self is doing--

The difference is eternal life, and eternal death.
Faith must be placed 100% in Jesus for salvation or else we are 100% lost. Sadly, there are many "nominal" Christians who also place faith in self/what self is doing and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#71
Faith must be placed 100% in Jesus for salvation or else we are 100% lost. Sadly, there are many "nominal" Christians who also place faith in self/what self is doing and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.
Don't understand "nominal Christians".
Can a person truly be saved if not 100% faith in Jesus and 0% in self?
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,357
652
113
#72
There is no pretend or spurious faith.

Faith is faith
Just like belief is belief.
I agree, but in our human capacity we lack the ability to see into ones heart, and often equate religion and good intentions with faith. We also have to take the innumerable warnings about imposters, who can fool way too many, unfortunately.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#73
Don't understand "nominal Christians".
Can a person truly be saved if not 100% faith in Jesus and 0% in self?
Many people are nominal Christians because they do not have the whole message, they are missing pieces.

I agree there are others who choose to not have 100% faith in Jesus, as someone once said to me......

.Jesus does not save those who are trying to save themselves.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#74
God also required Abel to show his faith by offering the correct sacrifice. He told Cain to follow what Abel did, and promised that he will accept Cain if he did so, as stated in Genesis 4: 7 [\quote]

God requires perfection

Good luck with that
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#75
No man can serve two master. Jesus requires our ALL.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#76
Why expect if He is doing everything including selecting people to be saved?
I believe we have free will. I believe when we chose to accept Jesus, He will come to our heart and we will bear loving fruit, not killing or rob the bank, because good tree produce good fruit


A bout selection, I believe God select whosoever believe in Jesus, like what Jesus say in john 3:16
 

Smooth

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2019
460
627
93
#77
In such forums, if people refuse to read and learn for themselves, you cannot make them do so.
So you can’t support your own espousals or simply refuse to do so. Duly noted.
 

DJ3

Member
Jun 22, 2019
88
21
8
#78
Abel’s offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, but his offering did not make him become a righteous man. It was by or "out of" faith that Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, but that was not the point/moment of becoming righteous. Through his sacrifice, he was shown to be righteous (not accounted as righteous) just as Abraham offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 and was shown to be righteous (James 2:21) but he was accounted as righteous many years before that based on his faith and not his works. (Genesis 15:5-6; Romans 4:2-3)

The blind man was cured of blindness after he washed in the Pool of Siloam. He was not saved by faith + the merits of washing in the Pool of Siloam. Can you not truly see this? What I see is you continuing to peddle salvation by faith + works.
Abel’s offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, --- Agreed
but his offering did not make him become a righteous man --- Agreed
It was by or "out of" faith that Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain --- Agreed
but that was not the point/moment of becoming righteous. --- Agreed

As you can tell, I agree with all four of your points but you simply cannot see the forest for the trees.

Here's the verse:

By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. Hebrews 11:4

When did God commend Abel's? Was it before or after the act of sacrifice was done? After of course.
The verse clearly and purposely points out that God looked with favor towards Abel because he did the proper sacrifice.
God certainly knew of Abel's faith and righteousness before the physical sacrifice but it was the sacrifice that God chose to use as the event to
commend Abel. Abel's sacrifice was one of obedience, Cain's was not.

Without the proper act of sacrifice by a righteous Abel there would have been no commendation.

Cain was not told to have faith but to do in order to be accepted.

Here's the verse:

Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” Genesis 4:6-7

I truly cannot make this any clearer.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,446
12,932
113
#79
Cain was not told to have faith but to do in order to be accepted.
The doing would demonstrate faith. But to say "Cain was not told to have faith" means that you are ignoring the necessity of faith BEFORE the sacrifice is made.

Abel had faith in God BEFORE he made his offering. Cain had none. In fact the Bible tells us that Cain was under the control of the Wicked One -- the devil. Therefore Cain ignored God's requirement for a proper burnt offering, and decided that the fruit of the earth should be acceptable. Then he learned the error of his ways, and instead of turning to God, he killed his brother, thus compounding his sins. That is how wicked this man was.

And you are attempting to reverse what the Bible has revealed, and make Cain look like one of the good guys. I wonder why.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#80
The fruit does NOT produce the tree. The fruit IDENTIFIES the tree. Works Salvationists simply can't wrap their heads around this very simple concept.

Luke 6:43-45 New King James Version (NKJV)
A Tree Is Known by Its Fruit
43 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush.45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil [a]treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
And to take it even further....faith places us into the vine.....the ROOT (JESUS) is the one that PRODUCES the FRUIT....we as branches do nothing more that BEAR the fruit that the ROOT produces in US.......

ALL glory goes to JESUS and exactly why works do not save or keep saved.......it is ALL his work...it is ALL CHRIST or it is fraudulent.....