Not By Works

Awesome and I am glad HAHHA

I disagree for the reason dCon stated above.

You disagree with James?

How can a person be born of God and not change one part of his life? I am sorry But I will not agree a person can be born of God and have zero works..

His faith is dead. And that faith can not save.

Maybe the hiccup is conflating fruit with works?


Works are the fruit He works in us manifesting outwardly.


What stands between works and fruit is a flesh that only wants pleasure and wants to avoid hardship.


All of His have some fruit being worked inwardly, wether or not it manifests can not and will not save or keep saved.

I'm thinking we can agree on that?

Well we have done the James thing in the past EG....I do not agree that James states works will be automatic, what I read is that we are called to works to show men our new status in Christ and this is a choice because James would not have written what he wrote if works just happened.

Works need a physical body because faith cannot be seen.

EG, I am not sure what you mean.

What was dead was once alive.

James said if we claim we have faith but have no works, our faith is dead.

Those are his words. He did nto say they will be automatic, He insisted that are a byproduct.

Even the theif on the cross had works..

Again, I did nto say we need to see them. But to sau they will have zero zip nada works. That is not true. In fact, it is IMPOSSIBLE. Unless a person really has no faith at all.

Anyway we have discussed this before and I found no peace in Lordship salvation doctrine so I will not go back to it.

Funny, please how can something be dead unless it was first alive, the way you look at James I think leads to the salvation can be lost doctrine.

Never that I know of can something be dead unless it first lived, aside from this dead in context means inoperative, useless, meaning not being put to use.

I am not teaching lordship salvation.

So please. If that is what you think, you are wrong, Because that is far from the truth

I am teaching a person who is made a new creature will have some sort of fruit which comes from work. The their on the cross was saved by his faith, But look at his change, he went from mocking, to asking God to remember him.. Showing true fruits of repentance.

If a person comes, and claims he is saved, and acts like he did before he made this profession of faith, I am sorry, But you can not tell me that person is saved. There will be SOME evidence.. even if it is just a different attitude, a change in actions. Something.. It will not be empty

Did james ever say their faith was alive?

James said they CLAIMED to HAVE FAITH, he NEVER said they had living faith..

So why are you saying it was alive once?

Logic

I cannot get past the fact that a believer has DONE the work of the Heavenly Father....and that is the ONLY WORK that proves salvation before the throne............and the reason I say this is because MANY (plenteous in number) will come before the throne claiming MANY wonderful works in the name of JESUS..he does not say they did not do the works in his name, but he does say that HE NEVER KNEW THEM

LOST MEN do MANY WONDERFUL works every day, they give to charities, work in soup kitchens, open doors for little old ladies, donate to religious organizations, feed the poor, etc........and even in the name of JESUS but are as lost as a goose

Of course:

Luk 9:60 (ESV) And Jesus said to him, "Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

I think the issue is the definition of works..

Not all work is seen of men,, It may just be a small change in lifestyle or attitude, It may be the healing or change in values and lifestyle (certain sins which they loved to do before they no longer have a desire to do because it puts a bad taste in their mouth)

I would say this is a different context than what James is writing about.

I agree and i am not saying anythign else

I am talking about what happens after this.. A little things called God begining a good work in us, and he will complete it.

I am not talking works as in salvation, I am talking works as in sanctification.

yep. Thats because they never repented.. They never did the work of God and believed in the one he sent. I agree with this too.

Pharisees are a great example. Amen brother!!

WOW man.....the context is FAITH not men and or physical death........no wonder you miss the truth by a mile....cannot even grasp the context of a conversation