The Tabernacle in the Wilderness

Listen.....you really have no idea of what it stands for and or conflate it's value beyond that which is scripturally applied and sound....

Winner winner winner. Chicken dinner. Lol

All this fuss about baptism and salvation, when in reality I think the basis of the arguement is flawed. Is someone claiming baptism is needed for salvation?

Christ said unless one be born again by water and Spirit one cannot enter the Kingdom of God. That is the truth!!

You guys are all argung about being saved, two different points! You guys are just labeling them the same because of the misconstrued notion of what "saved" means. Thats the problem with your guys' arguement.

Moral of the story, you both are right in a sense. You guys are just arguing different points of scripture.

Here is illustrated someone entering heaven without proper attire. The attire we recieve is the Holy Spirit and it is seen as a white robe of righteousness.. this is how we enter into heaven and unless you be born again of water and Spirit you cannot get in.

Matthew 22:11 “But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding.12 ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply. 13 Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

So that guy got in by merely being invited. Probly uttered a prayer. He didnt put on the Holy Spirit. So theres a way to get the right attire. Wansvic made a great OP.

Water cleanses us, prepares us, and removes our impurities, it is for the remission of sins. It is all Spiritual and done in obedience thru faith... the Holy Spirit is the indwelling that accompanies the process to be complete and sealed, ready for the groom.

We are the bride we are not just guests. We must be properly dressed for the ceremony. Jesus explains how we must prepare. He says both water and Spirit are necessary.

Salvation is something else, that was done on the cross. Our sins forgiven was done through mercy and grace, through the blood of Jesus.

If we are going to the Kingdom of God since we believe in Jesus Christ, then we must prepare ourselves. We must be obedient to God. Being baptized is part of our walk with God. We need to be vigilant and prepared for when the Groom returns for His bride.

AMEN.........you know.....what amazes me is HOW MANY just flat PASS right over qualifying statements in the bible that SET the foundation and context of what is being said.....

John chapter three contains such a statement.....

THAT which is born of FLESH is FLESH <----WATER
THAT which is born of SPIRIT is SPIRIT <-----SPIRIT

JAMES is another one...

SHOW ME your FAITH
EVEN the DEVILS/DEMONS BELIEVE and TREMBLE

It is impossible to engage anyone on a meaningful and truthful level when they flat deny the qualifying statements such as above.......

A man must be born into this world and then BORN from above SPIRITUALLY to have EVERLASTING LIFE

They are both right. You are right because being saved comes from God through Jesus Christ. Not from water baptizm.

You however are wrong because baptizm is not works for salvation. It is obedience to God if you believe in God. If you do not believe in God then salvation does not apply to you because you are condemned already.

God does not promote disobedience and will not condone someone to disregard scripture and claim salvation as a pretense to get into heaven. Jesus paid the price, it is still up to us to recieve the gift. Belief repentance and obedience go hand in hand. Anything else is a counterfeit faith.

The bible calls it dead faith. Useless.

James 2:19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?
Faith without Good Deeds Is Dead
14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.
18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

AMEN.....James again being conflated to peddle some obedience laced salvation.........how hard is it to grasp that anything beyond salvation is the result of SALVATION...........

What astounds me is someone can read scripture and oppose what you have shared.
How many people would call a friend someone who had just killed the one closest to you?
One would want revenge, justice and the person to be restrained as clearly they are dangerous.

But some believe this person could be embraced by Christ, given authority and power because
they have exercised proper stewardship of the talents God has given them as a faithful servant,
so God can literally trust them to do His will into eternity.

Now any sane individual would lock the person up and then destroy them, because nothing is
there that justifies anything but judgement.

But in these believers minds, Jesus will just change all the parables, turn a rebellious sinner
into a responsible faithful servant and give them responsibility in the Kingdom. Now stupid
does not describe this, deluded and under judgement is a better reality.

But they will condemn me for stating the obvious as if they deserve something better.
If one believes God accepts this as working faith, worthy of forgiveness and eternal life,
you have to be joking. Jesus would rightly say go away from me you evil doers. I never knew you.

Oh boy tlc, here you going again contradicting yourself with two propositioins that "appear" to be contradictory but are not. Read what the Apostle Paul stated at Romans 3:28; 4:3, 19-22, and elsewhere refers to the method of justification.

When Abraham was 100 and Sara 90 years old (Genesis 17:17), Abraham believed God would fulfill His promise at (Genesis 15:1-6). James 2:21 taught that Abraham's obedience in offering Isaac many years later was the proof of genuine faith, (Genesis 22). The context makes it "CLEAR" that James taught a person is justifed by the kind of faith which is genuine and RESULTS IN OBEDIENCE." In other words, his actions were an indication that his faith was at work in all he did. The goal of true faith is a life in conformity to that faith.

This is also why at Acts 10:45 Cornelius received the Holy Spirit "FIRST" by believing the words of Peter and then Cornelius got water baptized, (an action) the proved His faith to the others. As I mentioned to wansvic the gospel that saves is outlined by the Apostle Paul at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Moreover, the Apostle Paul stated that Christ did not send him to baptize, but to presch the gospel. (1Corinthinas 1:14-17). If baptism is necessary for salvation, then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description Paul gave of the gospel at 1 Corinthains 15:1-4?

The other thing you have not taken into account is the fact that the oneness pentecostal church literally teaches you must be water baptized by them, only them. You also forgot to mention that in addition of getting water baptized your not saved if you don't speak in tongues. This is also what that false teacher waggles believes.

News flash, not every single Christian that has been saved spoke in tongues. How do you account for that tlc? Now, what about John 3:5? How do they all know that Jesus is referring to water baptism? Can you tell me or do you want me to explain it? Remeber, the thief on the cross was not water baptized not even water baptized for repentece as described at Mark 1:4.

So here's the point, the only baptisim was the baptism of repentance given by John. If that is so, then water baptism isn't necessary for salvaton because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced. This is brought up by what the Apostle Paul stated at Acts 19:1-7. Vs4, "And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, TELLING THE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO WAS COMING AFTER HIM, THAT IS IN JESUS." Belief or faith in Jesus first and then water baptized after your saved.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Isnt that what I just said? You pointed out everything I said. But only threw a curve ball about Paul as if to say Paul would contradict scripture? Is that what you are implying?

We are saved because of Jesus Christ. The baptizm is for remission of sins. When did Paul say not to do baptizms? He clearly said not to do circumcisions, but when did Paul say not to do water baptizms. Paul even baptized a few, but that was not his calling.

As for speaking in tounges the bible says it is a gift of the Holy Spirit. It is not the only evidence of having the Holy Spirit. So correction for anyone who believes otherwise.

The gospel that Paul preaches is the gospel that saves? What does that even mean? Paul is in unity with all other scriptures, his are not seperate. They harmonize and support one another, they are not a seperate gospel.

What gospel are you preaching? That Jesus Christ died on the cross so that we may be forgiven and reconciled to God?

Well if we believe that gospel as truth, we will then seek the Word of God as a guide to how to live for God. Hanging on every Word taught in scripture.

Baptizm is part of scripture and was ordered by God. Sent through His prophet John. And authorized through Jesus Christ. And acted out by the apostles baptizing in the name of Jesus.

Your saved doctrine teaches you dont have to obey the Word of God?

If that is so how can you say you follow the true Gospel?

If you teach to disregard commands of God then I say you are in danger of hell fire. And I stand corrected that both of you are right... because I see you as a brother in Christ, unless you are just masquerading.

I didnt say you were both right to condone false teaching. I said you guys were both speaking truths. In that sense you are right, but false gospels is something else.

Salvation has nothing to do with baptizm. Standing right with God requires obedience. Baptizm is done in obedience. It has nothing to do with salvation. Who told you otherwise? It is done for remission of sins. Not for salvation. So therefore it is not works for salvation.

Any other form of teaching that is contrary to obedience to God, is doctrine of demons. Take it how you want.

God has many commands, You like to focus on just one. I think you have tunnel vision.

I was baptized less than a year after I was saved, You see I am obedient to Gods word. You are just another one who accuses based on lack of understanding.

Because I have experienced Gods love, I have experienced his grace. And I have experienced the joy one has when they obey him.



You my friend are an accuser. And you are misled, and you are misinformed.

I am not your brother. I have a different gospel. One of us is wrong. And the one who is, is in danger.

We are not both speaking truths. You can talk it up all you want.

We teach different gospels.

One teaches a gospel of works

I teach grace through faith. Apart form works, lest I should boast.

I dont teach anything about works. Did i tell u, u need to be circumcised?
Did I teach you need to be at church service every service?
Did I say you have to tithe?
Did I say you must give to the poor, or help the orphans and widows?
Matter of fact I dont know what works I would even speak on because I dont have anything to do with works.

What works am I preaching?

You say im not your brother, so ill leave you alone. You have more to worry about than a stranger. God bless you.

No, that is not what you said. You contradicted yourself and I am not the only one that has pointed that out to you. I also told you that wansvic and her church make water baptism and speaking in tongues mandatory or your "NOT SAVED," period. And even if you were baptized by another church the oneness church would re-baptize you because to them your still lost. And btw, do you speak in tongues?

Now, I said this: "Moreover, the Apostle Paul stated that Christ did not send him to baptize, but to presch the gospel. (1Corinthinas 1:14-17). If baptism is necessary for salvation, then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description Paul gave of the gospel at 1 Corinthains 15:1-4?"

You then responded with the question, "but when did Paul say not to do water baptizms. Paul even baptized a few, but that was not his calling." I have a news flash for you tlc? Every Chritians calling is "other people" and give them a reason for faith as to what you believe and why you believe it. 1 Peter 3:15. Do you believe what Acts 1:8 says tlc? Or how about 2 Corinthians 5:20? We are commanded to tell others about Jesus Christ. And one more thing. I've been a Christian 56 years now and have told to hundreds and hundres of people, not one single time did I ever tell them they need to baptized, let alone if they don't get water baptized your lost. Think about that!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

So you hate pentecostals. I get it. Whats your quarrel with me?

Ive repeated so many times baptizm has nothing to do with salvation. Did you read that, or do u just keep talking about wansvic and the pentecostals? Im not a pentecostal. Im a born again Christian, Holy Ghost filled. Im not a tounge speaker. I dont have that gift.

How do you discredit baptizm? Because its not part of salvation? Is tithing a part of salvation? Short answer NO.

Whats that got to do with obeying scripture?

If something has nothing to do with salvation, GET RID OF IT??? (Your interpretation, not mine)

Your arguement is shallow and revolves around salvation. And to be honest its getting a little old.. most of you guys agree to getting baptized, and so you do it, but throw stones at the pentecostals and say that its not needed. But you did it anyway??

Pentecostals on the other hand say its needed for salvation, and the stone throwing continues.

You guys are both arguing over irrelevancies, and if its the pentecostals who think you need baptizm for salvation they are misinterpretting scripture. I have yet had any pentecostal respond to my posts in disagreement. Ive only got backlash from those who are against the notion that baptizm is irrelevent. Yet you guys all been baptized.

GO FIGURE!! smh......

First of all you need to apologize for saying, "You hate pentecostals." I "DO NOT" hat oneness pentecostals. This shows me how immature you are because you don't know the operation of one's mind. You also don't know what the cults teach. And yes, the oneness pentecostals are a big time cult just like the Moromons and Jw's. I also suggest you read the follwoing site I posted which is only one of hundreds trying to educate people about the cults before they are carried away by every wind of doctrine.

https://hewhohasearslethimhear.word...on-according-to-oneness-pentecostals-refuted/

Finally, you made this "asinine statement. "You guys are both arguing over irrelevancies," This whole issue is extremely relevant. Your in the big leagues now and not messing around with little kids that don't know what their talking about. In short, grow up, especially spiritually.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Actually Pentecostals DO NOT teach this false doctrine. So if you believe it, you should give it up.

There may be some Pentecostals who have gone off the deep end, but here is what Pentecostals (Assemblies of God) believe about Christian baptism, which is the belief of all conservative Christians:

The Ordinances of the Church
We believe that baptism in water by immersion is expected of all who have repented and believed. In so doing they declare to the world that they have died with Christ and been raised with Him to walk in newness of life (Matthew 28:19; Acts 10:47-48; Romans 6:4).

https://www.247ag.com/WAGF/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Application-Statement-of-Faith.pdf

awww. in the other thread you were so sweet. but here you are throwing out ad hominum attacks like they were party favors

you just lost all credibility with anyone who can read

so they are doing tag teams now?

wansvic and waggles team 1

and follow and tlc team 2

I hope they can stay out of each other's way