What do you believe and why do you believe it?
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The point is that Hellfire and Damnation is not an act of love. Love may fail to draw you for a while but it never rejects completely. Your God is like someone holding a gun to my head shouting "Don't make me shoot you!"
If God pulls the trigger and puts a bullet between my eyes, you cannot say I committed suicide.
If God pulls the trigger and puts a bullet between my eyes, you cannot say I committed suicide.
The reason the laws of logic may be taken as axiomatic, is that they are self-proving. In other words, you need the law of identity to be true to argue that the law of identity is false. This is the justification for accepting them without additional justification. They therefore need no cause. This is because the contrary position is impossible. If I believed that I didn’t exist, this statement assumes my very existence. Denying the laws of logic automatically pre-supposes them. If I were to say that “The law of identity is false” this by necessity uses said law. Denying the laws of logic is self-refuting. The Presuppositionalist Christian seems to not think this is sufficient unto itself and instead wants them to be “accounted for” whatever that really means.
Reasoning is not a linear process that has come from nowhere. It is an emergent process that results from experience and reflection.Science works due to post-axiomatic justification. You might then say "What about the pre-axiomatic justification?" The edge of the rabbit hole is starting to look a bit precarious.
It would have been helpful for the Bible to contain some tutorials in basic logic and epistemology don't you think?
My Post 87 was an early version:
"I agree with you that the starting point for morality is arbitrary but "maximising people's emotional and physical wellbeing" is a standard in of itself and it can be measured by the Social Sciences. There is an optimum wellbeing that can be reached. I think people know this deep down. The assumptions are that pleasure is preferable to pain, health is preferable to illness, life is preferable to death, freedom is preferable to incarceration, etc. Do you think these are good assumptions for a thriving, healthy, co-operative society for our children to grow up in?
You believe you have THE MORAL STANDARD but how did you decide that was the right one? More importantly, do you consider slavery and genocide to be moral or not?"
"I agree with you that the starting point for morality is arbitrary but "maximising people's emotional and physical wellbeing" is a standard in of itself and it can be measured by the Social Sciences. There is an optimum wellbeing that can be reached. I think people know this deep down. The assumptions are that pleasure is preferable to pain, health is preferable to illness, life is preferable to death, freedom is preferable to incarceration, etc. Do you think these are good assumptions for a thriving, healthy, co-operative society for our children to grow up in?
You believe you have THE MORAL STANDARD but how did you decide that was the right one? More importantly, do you consider slavery and genocide to be moral or not?"
In reading this I see some good news and some bad news. The good news is you are still among the land of the living which means therefore choices are still your inherent right so choose wisely. Now your bad news. There is no such person as an atheist (Her: 8) all know there is a God , again Her 8, question is will you bow to Him or not? Again choose wisely.
You keep playing logic games with us. Even if for some reason you believed that Satan is good, it was God's Word the Holy Bible that told you about satan in the first place, meaning that God also exists. And if he exists then the Bible testifies to His Goodness. Who does the devil want to nail to a cross? You or himself? But God would rather experience this suffering himself so you don't have to. But the devil, being himself, wants this holy sacrifice to be of no effect on you, so you will suffer anyway. However smart you think your are, the devil is always smarter. Only God is smarter than the devil, so only God can save. It is the devil's game to confuse you with complex logic so you won't see the truth from God.
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When I was a young man, in a time long ago, I was a member of a Baptist. It was a small church with a pastor who loved people.
I still think about him often after 50 years, anyway, has was the tradition, he gave an alter call at the end of every service. It was during this time, as result of issues I thought had no remedy , conviction emerged and I realized that my life was really undone. Because I was indoctrinated in the baptist beliefs my response was to go to the alter when the invention was given. Down at the alter the pastor prayed and told me to have courage. This was a morning service that night I was back to the alter again. The next Sunday the same thing. Time and again week after week until it was causing an embarrassment for everyone. Finally the pastor informed me he did not know what I was searching for but it was beyond him to provide the answer. Eventually I did received my answer. The point here is that going to an "alter" because you believe its the answer will accomplish nothing. In the end it must be a personal response to the voice of the Holy Spirit and yes He does have a real voice and you will never misunderstand what it is saying and yes once you hear it you will ALWAYS WANT TO HEAR MORE.
I still think about him often after 50 years, anyway, has was the tradition, he gave an alter call at the end of every service. It was during this time, as result of issues I thought had no remedy , conviction emerged and I realized that my life was really undone. Because I was indoctrinated in the baptist beliefs my response was to go to the alter when the invention was given. Down at the alter the pastor prayed and told me to have courage. This was a morning service that night I was back to the alter again. The next Sunday the same thing. Time and again week after week until it was causing an embarrassment for everyone. Finally the pastor informed me he did not know what I was searching for but it was beyond him to provide the answer. Eventually I did received my answer. The point here is that going to an "alter" because you believe its the answer will accomplish nothing. In the end it must be a personal response to the voice of the Holy Spirit and yes He does have a real voice and you will never misunderstand what it is saying and yes once you hear it you will ALWAYS WANT TO HEAR MORE.
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Rather than focus on what you perceive are discrepancies in the narrative, why don't you focus on what is consistent …
All four gospels indicate the Lord Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead.
All four gospels indicate the Lord Jesus Christ appeared in His resurrected body.
I could take the time and go through the records and remark on your perceived "inconsistencies". Would you then believe? Or would you further harden your heart and find some other "inconsistency" which would cause you to continue on your path away from God?
just asking because I took the time to show you there was no inconsistency in the field of blood issue and you now agree there were two purchases ... not that you have come to faith in God, you just "would not use that example in future to demonstrate a Biblical inconsistency".
I took the time to show you there was no inconsistency between Matthew/Mark "six days" and Luke "about eight days" and you're still "Not really convinced that there's no inconsistency" ... even to the point of stating "The God of the Bible comes across as inept and bungling sometimes”.
You need to figure out what you want out of this life. Do you want to continue to deny the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein or do you want to turn to the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein and start on the path where He will personally reveal Himself to you? You will never be disappointed in your walk with God. It's not all smooth sailing. There will be times of calm and peace and there are rough patches you'll go through — times where you will disappoint yourself and/or others will disappoint you ... but one thing's for sure ... it won't be God Who disappoints you.
In your OP, you indicated "I like to challenge my beliefs" .
Is it your intent to turn TO God and seek Him?
Is it your intent to turn others FROM God?
again ... just askin' ...
All four gospels indicate the Lord Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead.
All four gospels indicate the Lord Jesus Christ appeared in His resurrected body.
I could take the time and go through the records and remark on your perceived "inconsistencies". Would you then believe? Or would you further harden your heart and find some other "inconsistency" which would cause you to continue on your path away from God?
just asking because I took the time to show you there was no inconsistency in the field of blood issue and you now agree there were two purchases ... not that you have come to faith in God, you just "would not use that example in future to demonstrate a Biblical inconsistency".
I took the time to show you there was no inconsistency between Matthew/Mark "six days" and Luke "about eight days" and you're still "Not really convinced that there's no inconsistency" ... even to the point of stating "The God of the Bible comes across as inept and bungling sometimes”.
You need to figure out what you want out of this life. Do you want to continue to deny the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein or do you want to turn to the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein and start on the path where He will personally reveal Himself to you? You will never be disappointed in your walk with God. It's not all smooth sailing. There will be times of calm and peace and there are rough patches you'll go through — times where you will disappoint yourself and/or others will disappoint you ... but one thing's for sure ... it won't be God Who disappoints you.
In your OP, you indicated "I like to challenge my beliefs" .
Is it your intent to turn TO God and seek Him?
Is it your intent to turn others FROM God?
again ... just askin' ...
I'm sorry I haven't got round to responding individually today. The next week I will have limited time to respond and the week after that I will be out if the country with probably no internet access for some time. I bet your Admins are breathing a sigh of relief at that Good News. I should be able to respond individually at some point next week but it may be a good idea for you to post only pressing questions or requests of clarification from now on.
You have just described most people’s understanding of God. I am quite content in that many do not believe in the true God, creator/owner of the whole earth and all its contents. God is simply not dealing with some people yet. He will deal with everyone in His time. You too.
It is not our job to evangelize the world. Scripture says the Gospel is to be preached throughout the world as a witness: Matt. 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” A witness can be for you or against you.
God is not the Great speed cop in the sky, ready to swat you for your sins. When saved He will not even remember our sins: Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”
Read this carefully, and tell me if the stone could have already been rolled back: Matt. 28:2 “And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.” One Angel was sitting on it at a later time, and the other angel not mentioned.
Luke 24:4 “And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:” There are your two angels, earthquake not mentioned.
John 20:1 “The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.” Only one Mary mentioned, earthquake not mentioned; common in third person narrative. Where is the problem?
He does love us, but our sin will kill us. Nobody will live in flames forever. The hell you are describing is a middle-age myth. The wages of sin is death (see Romans 6:23). The soul that sins, will die: Eze. 18:20a “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” The everlasting life in flames will not happen to anybody/anything. Hint: Think memorials.
It is not our job to evangelize the world. Scripture says the Gospel is to be preached throughout the world as a witness: Matt. 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” A witness can be for you or against you.
God is not the Great speed cop in the sky, ready to swat you for your sins. When saved He will not even remember our sins: Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”
Read this carefully, and tell me if the stone could have already been rolled back: Matt. 28:2 “And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.” One Angel was sitting on it at a later time, and the other angel not mentioned.
Luke 24:4 “And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:” There are your two angels, earthquake not mentioned.
John 20:1 “The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.” Only one Mary mentioned, earthquake not mentioned; common in third person narrative. Where is the problem?
He does love us, but our sin will kill us. Nobody will live in flames forever. The hell you are describing is a middle-age myth. The wages of sin is death (see Romans 6:23). The soul that sins, will die: Eze. 18:20a “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” The everlasting life in flames will not happen to anybody/anything. Hint: Think memorials.