Romans 8:29-30 Refuting Calvanism - Free will

By the way, Reformed theology isn't about proof-texting. It is a system which is coherent.

Romans 8:29-30 Refuting Calvanism

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These verses are amongst the most favourite of calvanist. A read of these two verses will make most people conclude that God predestined us, even against our free will.
But let’s examine free will. If we did not have free will then we would technically be programmed robots without a choice. God designed humans with a free will. We can determine if we will do ‘good’ or ‘evil’ so to speak. Given that, we do have the choice to repent and get right with God. This is how God is justified in condemning sinners to eternal hell because they had a choice/chance and they rejected it – they are responsible.

So if we do have a free will on the basis of getting right with God, then that means calvanism cannot be true. But how do we explain theses verses above. After studying this, I’ve concluded that Romans 8:29-30 is referring to the interceding spirit of God on those who would repent and believe. Let’s start. Firstly, ‘Foreknow’ means God foreknew who would repent, he also foreknew who would go to hell, but this is in the context of Christians. Rom8:29 - ‘Predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,’ this implies an action, a verb. So God performed an action on the behalf of those He knew would repent. Romans 8:26-27 implies this could mean the sending of the Holy Spirit to help guide those repentant believers. After all, if someone repented and did not have the spirit to guide him/her, how would they continue in the walk after God? Here are the verses that provide the context for Romans 8:29-30:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

So we can see the context of Romans 8:29-30 is about the spirit making intercession to the saints. In other words, God knew before creation who would repent, and to those He knew would repent He acted in ordaining the guidance of the Holy Spirit so they would be preserved and not fall back into the world. Just remember, this does not mean we will have guaranteed salvation, we still have free will and can still reject God’s free gift.

If you are in doubt, do your own study – I’d encourage it. Please respond to this and tell me your views and what you think. I can go a lot further into scripture and theology in regard to this but I will keep it short. I hope to provoke discussion in regard to this heated portion of scripture.

You assume God needs to be justified by His actions. Before whom?

Romans 8:29-30 Refuting Calvanism

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These verses are amongst the most favourite of calvanist. A read of these two verses will make most people conclude that God predestined us, even against our free will.
But let’s examine free will. If we did not have free will then we would technically be programmed robots without a choice. God designed humans with a free will. We can determine if we will do ‘good’ or ‘evil’ so to speak. Given that, we do have the choice to repent and get right with God. This is how God is justified in condemning sinners to eternal hell because they had a choice/chance and they rejected it – they are responsible.

So if we do have a free will on the basis of getting right with God, then that means calvanism cannot be true. But how do we explain theses verses above. After studying this, I’ve concluded that Romans 8:29-30 is referring to the interceding spirit of God on those who would repent and believe. Let’s start. Firstly, ‘Foreknow’ means God foreknew who would repent, he also foreknew who would go to hell, but this is in the context of Christians. Rom8:29 - ‘Predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,’ this implies an action, a verb. So God performed an action on the behalf of those He knew would repent. Romans 8:26-27 implies this could mean the sending of the Holy Spirit to help guide those repentant believers. After all, if someone repented and did not have the spirit to guide him/her, how would they continue in the walk after God? Here are the verses that provide the context for Romans 8:29-30:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

So we can see the context of Romans 8:29-30 is about the spirit making intercession to the saints. In other words, God knew before creation who would repent, and to those He knew would repent He acted in ordaining the guidance of the Holy Spirit so they would be preserved and not fall back into the world. Just remember, this does not mean we will have guaranteed salvation, we still have free will and can still reject God’s free gift.

If you are in doubt, do your own study – I’d encourage it. Please respond to this and tell me your views and what you think. I can go a lot further into scripture and theology in regard to this but I will keep it short. I hope to provoke discussion in regard to this heated portion of scripture.

Coherent and coherently mistaken. If one domino falls, they all fall.

And it is a *system* but NOT the Gospel of God and Christ -- simply "another gospel".

The problem is that those who are brainwashed into believing this nonsense simply refuse to let it go even after they have been provided with Scriptures which refute their nonsense. That clearly shows that the doctrines of men seem to be more powerful than the Word of God (as Christ rebuked the scribes, lawyers, and Pharisees). They too has a theological *system" worked out but it was contrary to Scripture.

Faith/Belief precedes regeneration: John 20:31 "but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

AFTER a person is born again faith is either a fruit or a gift of the Holy Spirit.

But saving faith is generated by the preaching of the Gospel. Read and study Romans 10.

And saving faith indeed precedes the New Birth, which is a result of receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.

LOL...

It's hilarious how all these scholars on Christian chat can't even spell the theology they are criticizing

Coherent and coherently mistaken. If one domino falls, they all fall.

And it is a *system* but NOT the Gospel of God and Christ -- simply "another gospel".

The problem is that those who are brainwashed into believing this nonsense simply refuse to let it go even after they have been provided with Scriptures which refute their nonsense. That clearly shows that the doctrines of men seem to be more powerful than the Word of God (as Christ rebuked the scribes, lawyers, and Pharisees). They too has a theological *system" worked out but it was contrary to Scripture.

Salvation is by the Power of God and not the strength and understanding of men.

It is ALL a gift and it is the Will of God.

Salvation is God's gift to the sinner who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. And it is the will of God that ALL THE WORLD should be saved.

whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:16,17)

Why did Jesus repeat "the world" FOUR TIMES if He did not mean "the world"?

Faith/Belief precedes regeneration: John 20:31 "but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

Romans 9:16-19
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

If it is the will of God that IF the world means every single person in the world will be saved, then it will happen.

It sure doesn't appear that is what's happening.

Maybe you misunderstand the verse you are quoting?



Maybe He meant world in a different way than what you are thinking?

He changed from the world to whosoever... Obviously something changed there.

How come He didn't say "for God so loved the world that the world should not perish?" Because that is NOT what He meant.

He meant that all generations starting right then have a chance through the Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise, the whole world would be without hope, every generation.

Grandpa, I do not want to offend you because I believe in what you say in a lot of your posts. The word "believeth" that is used in John 3:16, is it not written in the present tense. Most students of the bible use it in future tense, such as "whosoever WILL BELIEVE". Is this the way you are using it?

Romans 8:29-30 Refuting Calvanism

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These verses are amongst the most favourite of calvanist. A read of these two verses will make most people conclude that God predestined us, even against our free will.
But let’s examine free will. If we did not have free will then we would technically be programmed robots without a choice. God designed humans with a free will. We can determine if we will do ‘good’ or ‘evil’ so to speak. Given that, we do have the choice to repent and get right with God. This is how God is justified in condemning sinners to eternal hell because they had a choice/chance and they rejected it – they are responsible.

So if we do have a free will on the basis of getting right with God, then that means calvanism cannot be true. But how do we explain theses verses above. After studying this, I’ve concluded that Romans 8:29-30 is referring to the interceding spirit of God on those who would repent and believe. Let’s start. Firstly, ‘Foreknow’ means God foreknew who would repent, he also foreknew who would go to hell, but this is in the context of Christians. Rom8:29 - ‘Predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,’ this implies an action, a verb. So God performed an action on the behalf of those He knew would repent. Romans 8:26-27 implies this could mean the sending of the Holy Spirit to help guide those repentant believers. After all, if someone repented and did not have the spirit to guide him/her, how would they continue in the walk after God? Here are the verses that provide the context for Romans 8:29-30:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

So we can see the context of Romans 8:29-30 is about the spirit making intercession to the saints. In other words, God knew before creation who would repent, and to those He knew would repent He acted in ordaining the guidance of the Holy Spirit so they would be preserved and not fall back into the world. Just remember, this does not mean we will have guaranteed salvation, we still have free will and can still reject God’s free gift.

If you are in doubt, do your own study – I’d encourage it. Please respond to this and tell me your views and what you think. I can go a lot further into scripture and theology in regard to this but I will keep it short. I hope to provoke discussion in regard to this heated portion of scripture.

Grandpa, I do not want to offend you because I believe in what you say in a lot of your posts. The word "believeth" that is used in John 3:16, is it not written in the present tense. Most students of the bible use it in future tense, such as "whosoever WILL BELIEVE". Is this the way you are using it?