Not By Works

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posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#108,201
Jul 31, 2013
36,682
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#108,201
posthuman said:
been thousands of posts since i was last keeping up with this thread.
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no way i'm catching up. if i read the last 10 pages, i'll be like, i need to read the last 20. then i'll be like, wait i need to read the last 30. then 50, then 75, then 200 . . . .

it's kind of fun for me, i just hop in once in a while and see how well i can kind of blend in without context :LOL::D
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,202
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
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#108,202
Macabeus said:
you agree with all of this?
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posthuman said:
i'd use the word simultaneous, in place of instantaneous. but whether it is actually simultaneous or not, is interesting to me, and i'm not sure about. i'd say, with your definition, and t being a time,
t(regeneration) ≤ t(belief)
that is, you have to be made alive before you can believe, because in unbelief, you are dead. so being made alive can't come after belief, but only before or at the same exact instant. depends on definition of 'belief' .. ?
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If salvation is part of salvation, like you said, wouldnt it follow that to deny simitaneopus regeneration upon belief would be in effect denying similtaneous salvation upon belief?:unsure:
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#108,204
Jul 31, 2013
36,682
13,139
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#108,204
Macabeus said:
If salvation is part of salvation, like you said, wouldnt it follow that to deny simitaneopus regeneration upon belief would be in effect denying similtaneous salvation upon belief?:unsure:
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if that's what Ephesians 2:1-7 is describing ;)
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#108,205
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#108,205
posthuman said:
no way i'm catching up. if i read the last 10 pages, i'll be like, i need to read the last 20. then i'll be like, wait i need to read the last 30. then 50, then 75, then 200 . . . .

it's kind of fun for me, i just hop in once in a while and see how well i can kind of blend in without context :LOL::D
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You blend in like two ping pong balls in chocolate pudding. :ROFL:
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,206
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
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#108,206
posthuman said:
with the part i quoted. i have no idea what 'lordship salvation' means to you or him, much less if you're really preaching it or he's mistaken. because i'm ill-informed. been thousands of posts since i was last keeping up with this thread.

so, in what you quoted, i agree with everything after the word trash. i am too ignorant to comment on the first part of gb9's post.
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SO you believe that regeneration belongs in a seperate conversation from salvation, ie it has nothing to do with salvation.

Because GN9 said this...

"all are saved the instant they believe, and stay so as long as they believe...regeneration is a separate conversation."

Read it carefully.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#108,208
Jul 31, 2013
36,682
13,139
113
#108,208
Macabeus said:
SO you believe that regeneration belongs in a seperate conversation from salvation, ie it has nothing to do with salvation.

Because GN9 said this...

"all are saved the instant they believe, and stay so as long as they believe...regeneration is a separate conversation."

Read it carefully.
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well, the area of a sphere's surface is a separate conversation than its volume. but we're still talking about a sphere
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,209
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
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#108,209
posthuman said:
well, the area of a sphere's surface is a separate conversation than its volume. but we're still talking about a sphere
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So we must seperate regeneration from salvation, even though Titus 3:5 says that God saved us BY regeneration, ie regeneration is a MEANS BY WHICH GOD SAVES US

In that case, you would have to say justification is a seperate conversation from salvation. But I certainly wouldn't say that.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,210
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
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#108,210
gb9 said:
again, regeneration, instant, yes. evidence of that, instantly, no.
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You changed your position. Before you said instant regeneration is a big fat lie. Why not just say you mispoke? That's what I noticed about you. You read into posts, and then when corrected you change your position. Just like here.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#108,211
Jul 31, 2013
36,682
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#108,211
Macabeus said:
So does Ephesians 2:1-7 happen similtaneously with faith?

Also read Titus 3:5. DO you see where it says God SAVES us by the washing of regeneration, etc...
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is renewing the same as regenerating?
like, the renewal of our minds by the Spirit -- is that the same?
because, doesn't that renewal take place over time, progressively? so it's different?

is 'regeneration' a word in the scripture or an extra term that's added?
i'm not against extra terms. just that they should be carefully defined in a way we can agree on. :)
((i read a couple versions of Titus 3:5 just now and they said 'renewal' - maybe one i didn't look at uses 'regeneration'))
it's possible to muddy things by using too many words. that's a skillfulness i aspire to, to be precise, and brief, together.

another complication is that God, who created time, isn't restrained by it, but calls things which are not yet as though they already are, because He does all He intends.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,212
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
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#108,212
posthuman said:
is renewing the same as regenerating?
like, the renewal of our minds by the Spirit -- is that the same?
because, doesn't that renewal take place over time, progressively? so it's different?

is 'regeneration' a word in the scripture or an extra term that's added?
i'm not against extra terms. just that they should be carefully defined in a way we can agree on. :)
((i read a couple versions of Titus 3:5 just now and they said 'renewal' - maybe one i didn't look at uses 'regeneration'))
it's possible to muddy things by using too many words. that's a skillfulness i aspire to, to be precise, and brief, together.

another complication is that God, who created time, isn't restrained by it, but calls things which are not yet as though they already are, because He does all He intends.
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Both regeneration AND renewal are in Titus 3:5. Different aspects.

Some translations render what I call regeneration the New Birth. Like I said, new birth is another way of saying regeneration

Re- again

Generation- producing or giving birth.

We don't always show results immedietely after the new birth, but we ALWAYS receive a new nature. That was the point I was trying to make. GB9 confuse inner nature with outward fruit and accused me of being a works salvationist
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#108,213
Jul 31, 2013
36,682
13,139
113
#108,213
Macabeus said:
So we must seperate regeneration from salvation, even though Titus 3:5 says that God saved us BY regeneration, ie regeneration is a MEANS BY WHICH GOD SAVES US
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i wouldn't say that they must be separated, but that they're separate conversations in the sense that they are separate aspects of God's work, or, if you like, individual topics. that doesn't mean they are 'separate' in the sense of having no link or congruency.

area & volume are connected, but they're different measures.

they can be the same:

area of a sphere = 4πr²
volume of a sphere = (4/3)πr³

(4/3)πr³ = 4πr²
r³ = 3r²
r = 3

for a sphere with radius 3, the volume is equal to the area.
that's not true for spheres of other radii.

the means and the end are different things, but they're not necessarily exclusive of each other.
you know, some people, the means are the end themselves.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,214
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#108,214
Macabeus said:
Both regeneration AND renewal are in Titus 3:5. Different aspects.

Some translations render what I call regeneration the New Birth. Like I said, new birth is another way of saying regeneration

Re- again

Generation- producing or giving birth.

We don't always show results immedietely after the new birth, but we ALWAYS receive a new nature. That was the point I was trying to make. GB9 confuse inner nature with outward fruit and accused me of being a works salvationist
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SO anyways, I have to go. Basically I said that regeneration/which is the new birth happens instantly, or as you say, similtaneously with faith, and GB9 called that works salvation, and Dcontroversal, Lightskin, and Eternally-grateful agreed with him. Interesting bunch around these parts. :)
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,215
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#108,215
posthuman said:
i wouldn't say that.
area & volume are connected, but they're different measures.

they can be the same:

area of a sphere = 4πr²
volume of a sphere = (4/3)πr³

(4/3)πr³ = 4πr²
r³ = 3r²
r = 3

for a sphere with radius 3, the volume is equal to the area.
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Look at it this way. If a Person pulls me out of the water and then performs CPR, they are both equal aspects of them saving my life. Same thing with different aspects of salvation.

Pulling me out is an aspect of the man saving my life. you cannot seperate him pulling me out from the water from the act of him saving my life.

Regeneration is an aspect of Jesus saving my soul. You cannot seperate regeneration from salvation.

Anyways, have to quit for the night. Take care.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#108,216
Jul 31, 2013
36,682
13,139
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#108,216
Macabeus said:
Anyways, have to quit for the night. Take care.
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good night. i added some to the post you just quoted after you quoted it. if you quote me or mention me or whatever, i'll see that you did and try to keep up some tomorrow. :)

not saying belief & being made alive are disconnected. saying i can see how they are different conversations in the same way speed and acceleration are different aspects/topics/measures, even though speed and acceleration are inextricably linked.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#108,217
Jul 31, 2013
36,682
13,139
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#108,217
Macabeus said:
SO anyways, I have to go. Basically I said that regeneration/which is the new birth happens instantly, or as you say, similtaneously with faith, and GB9 called that works salvation, and Dcontroversal, Lightskin, and Eternally-grateful agreed with him. Interesting bunch around these parts. :)
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maybe they just misunderstood you. better to just keep trying to explain what you mean than to feed a root of bitterness, IMO. water puts out fire, not more flames ;)
when people snark at me i find it is worse when i snark back, and better if i just overlook the snark and stick to the truth of whatever it is the conversation is about. not like i always do, of course, ya that's a struggle - just, i've noticed the better way, and the worse way.

((keeping in mind i just hopped into the middle of something and don't really know the history of what's been happening in the thread - so, just speaking generally))
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,219
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#108,219
posthuman said:
maybe they just misunderstood you. better to just keep trying to explain what you mean than to feed a root of bitterness, IMO. water puts out fire, not more flames ;)
when people snark at me i find it is worse when i snark back, and better if i just overlook the snark and stick to the truth of whatever it is the conversation is about. not like i always do, of course, ya that's a struggle - just, i've noticed the better way, and the worse way.

((keeping in mind i just hopped into the middle of something and don't really know the history of what's been happening in the thread - so, just speaking generally))
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It doesn't ,matter what I say to some people. Some people have a vendetta to pursue. He just started accusing me of things unprovoked when I was talking to someone else. . But your advice is good and appreciated.
 
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