The reformation.

Because of passages like these...

(Eph 3:2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(Eph 3:3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
(Eph 3:4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
(Eph 3:5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
(Eph 3:6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
(Eph 3:7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
(Eph 3:8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
(Eph 3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
(Eph 3:10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
(Eph 3:11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
(Eph 3:12) In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
(Eph 3:13) Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.


(Eph 2:11) Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
(Eph 2:12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(Eph 2:13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(Eph 2:14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(Eph 2:15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(Eph 2:16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

(Col 1:18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

(Act 20:28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


There seems to be a big difference between the Commonwealth of Israel and the Church. Both in future plans and past differences.

That probably fits in with the scripture that says "all Israel is not of Israel" also when Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach to gospel to the "lost sheep (who are saved eternally) of the house of Israel".

I'm not sure I follow. Are you referring to this passage?

(Rom 9:7-8) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

That is part of it. God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel, Gen 32:28. From that time on, most of the scriptures that has reference to Israel, it is referring to Jacob who is representative of God's elect, and not to the nation of Israel.

Another part of this..

We have the Kingdom of God

The Family of God

The church of God

They aren't the same. Family comes inside the Kingdom

Church comes inside the Family

The church.. being the institution of the local church. Singular word standing for all of Gods churches. Like 'the horse' or 'the car'

So the Family of God..with the Angels already there ..that began to be added to with Adam and Eve and then all converted people from then till now.

But the church.. began with Jesus and His disciples

Israel is called a church also.. but that isn't the church of the New Testament.

Mathew 18 shows the NT church.

Genesis shows the Family of God being added to.

There is a time when all believers will be one church in heaven.. but that is 'yet future'

A church assembles
Every believer are not yet all assembled as one.

That is part of it. God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel, Gen 32:28. From that time on, most of the scriptures that has reference to Israel, it is referring to Jacob who is representative of God's elect, and not to the nation of Israel.

All of God's elect are the church, but only a few of his elect have been revealed the deep things of the doctrine that Jesus taught.

I hope these so called 'deep things' would not go beyond what is written in Scripture and illuminated by the Holy Spirit. Remember not all 'interpretation' is inspired of God.

One of the deep things is understanding that Jesus only died for those that God gave him and all of them will receive eternal life. A second thing is the understanding the truth that God's elect are adopted children and that man played no part in getting adopted, such as; accepting Jesus, repenting of your sins in order to be saved eternally, claiming that your faith has saved you eternally, thinking that your works is what justified you for eternal life, and more, if you want a longer list.

Yes, even Calvin had difficulty with this one...

(1Jn 2:2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I really don't need a longer list, I've heard all the arguments decades ago.

If the scriptures do not harmonize, then you are not understanding the doctrine that Jesus taught. The word "world" in this scripture is interpreted by Greek interpreter Thayer to mean Any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort. a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Romans 11,12, etc.) a) used of believers only, also in John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:17, 1 Cor 4:9, and 2 Cor 5:19. "the whole world of believers (God's elect)".

I've heard that item on the 'long list' too, as well as the explanation of the word 'all'. I find that some people have a hard time to chew gum and walk at the same time. e.g God's election does not interfere with man's responsibility to choose Him.

Then what is your take on Psalms 53:2? And also on Eph 2:1-5? The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14, cannot choose anything of a spiritual nature, because he cannot discern spiritual things,

Psalm 53:2 KJVS
[2] God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
That's true.

1 Corinthians 2:14 KJVS
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

and that"s true.

But this is also true...

Romans 1:16 KJVS
[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The Gospel has the power to quicken even the dead (in spirit).

I understand that a little different than you. Question 1 - Is the gospel spiritual in content? Question 2 - If your answer is yes to question 1, wouldn't the gospel be foolishness to the natural man that is described in 1 Cor 2:14? Question 2 - Do you believe, in order to understand the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught, that the scriptures would have to harmonize and the scriptures would have to be rightly divided? The natural man, who cannot discern spiritually things, therefore, he cannot believe in spiritual things. 1 Cor 2:11 - For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. If the natural man is spiritually dead by not having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and can only understand the things of the spirit of man, then he would not be able to understand the gospel, because the gospel would have to be spiritually discerned. The Greek interpretation of "salvation" is "a deliverance". When we are quickened to life and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we are then able to believe in spiritual things, which cannot be done until a man is quickened, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When we have been quickened with the Holy Spirit, we are babes in Christ and do not instantly know the full truth of the gospel. Isa 28:9-10 - Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, and line upon line, here a little, and there a little. Rom 10:1-2-3 - Brethern, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel (spiritual Israel, Jacob), is that they might be saved (delivered, here in this world) For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God (evidence of the new birth), but not according to knowledge, For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and are going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. (trying to save themselves by the works of the law).

The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14, cannot choose anything of a spiritual nature, because he cannot discern spiritual things,

Too long

2 Corinthians 4:3-6 (KJV) But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

The Gospel Word has the power to shine in our darkness and give light to the blind. This is why Paul declares a curse on any preaching another Gospel (Gal 1:8_9).

God's Word in conjunction with His Spirit, brings us under conviction of sin, illuminates our need for a Savior, and imparts new life as we believe.

The Gospel is a simple declaration which is not included in that passage. Already addressed, and already ignored.

I think using the fact that we sometimes need to be revived would be a better term to use instead of "reformed". We need to be refreshed, or reminded of the truths of the scriptures. Reformed, to me, denotes "to change our thinking".