Why do theologians say the USA isn't mentioned in prophecy? See Rev 12

I can't stress this enough. We all need to recognize where they were in history and what was going on at the time these things were written. Equally important is to maintain audience integrity. Paul was writing to the Church of Thessalonika and John was writing to the 7 churches of Asia Minor (today's Turkey). They were not writing to 21st century Americans. If they were writing to us, then their words had ZERO meaning back then to their audience!!! Yet their words had urgency and intimacy. Both 2 Thes 2:4 and Rev 11:1 dealt with the 2nd temple. Paul wrote his second letter to the Thessalonians circa 52 AD. Thus he was talking about the very temple in existence at the time and not some distant temple to be constructed thousands of years later.

The "great tribulation" as Jesus called it, dealt with the siege of Jerusalem and the fact that 1.1 million out of 1.2 million disbelieving Jews would suffer and die of starvation, disease, sword (both from their own hands and the Romans) and fire. 93% of the population was to die in the most gruesome ways. Mothers were eating their own babies. It was the worst tribulation any nation would ever endure, as Jesus and Daniel taught. This is why Jesus said, "woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!" If Jesus was discussing the end of the planet, why does He say 2 verses later, "great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." "Nor ever be" implies there is more history in the future to be written and no other nation in the future will ever suffer like this.

John wrote Revelation sometime after being banished to Patmos by Nero but before the 70 AD destruction of Israel and the temple. The “Syriac version” of the New Testament, which dates back to the second century A.D., states that Revelation was written during the reign of Nero making a date of 64-68 A.D. The Murdock 5th century version starts out like this, "The Revelation, which was made by God to John the Evangelist, in the island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero the Emperor." The only root source for a 95-96 AD date came from Irenaeus, a 2nd century French Bishop from Lyon with no direct knowledge. He was relaying a conversation he had 38 years earlier with Polycarp who was a disciple of John. He simply got it wrong. John wrote 7 specific letters to these churches both admonishing and encouraging them as the end of Israel, and its temple, was at hand. These messages were important to them, with instructions to them, not us. Revelation begins by stating, "to show His servants—things which must shortly take place" and "the time is near." If it dealt with us, it would use the same language found in Daniel such as, "time of the end," or "last days."

The fact that they (1st century Jews) were living in the last days (of their Mosaic age) is born out by Peter, quoting Joel 2 in Acts 2:17, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh..." That happened at Pentecost as Peter was saying it!!! Heb 1:2 repeats this, "has in these last days spoken to us by His Son..." The Mosaic Age and the Law were about to end with the destruction of the second temple, not some third temple. If the USA were to be destroyed in 2-18 years (as was the case with Paul and John's country) would you be worried about, and talking about, some future USA 2,000+ years later? Our country and everything we know and love was about to be destroyed and you are fear mongering me about events thousands of years into the future??? Seriously??? If an planet-killing asteroid was going to hit us 2,000 years from now, do we really care???? Common man!!

Garee, go back and read my posts.. It seems we are in agreement.

Sorry for not reading more carefully.

It's all good my brotha!!

Domitian was the the younger brother of Titus they were the sons of Vespasian. When Vespasian became Emperor in AD 69 following the death of Nero there was a power struggle with two rival claims to the throne. Because of this Vespasian didn't arrive in Rome until AD70. During his absence Domitian temporarily acted as Caesar for about six months representing the Flavian dynasty ie his father and brother. It has been suggested that it was during this brief period Domitian sent John to Patmos and this was why Irenaeus stated that Domitian was Emperor when Revelation was written.
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My sincere apologies for not seeing your post till now.

My response (which I tried to make brief, but didn't turn out that way ):

TDW - In 2Th2, Paul is telling the Thessalonians not to be convinced by anyone telling them "the DOTL *IS PRESENT* [G1764 - enestēken/enistémi - perfect indicative]"... b/c THAT DAY will not be present if not shall have come The Departure *FIRST* (*ONE THING FIRST*; AND [additionally] the man of sin be revealed). The REASON they wrongly believed (or were at risk of wrongly believing [requiring Paul's address]) that "the DOTL *IS PRESENT*" is because of *their* PRESENT and ONGOING, very NEGATIVE and oppressive "persecutions and tribulations" *they* were ONGOINGLY experiencing (per 2Th1:4).

This was a REASONABLE thing for *them* to [wrongly] believe, and Paul is addressing that. And when you boil it all down, Paul is saying "the Church which is His body" will NOT be present on the earth at the same time "the DOTL/&man of sin" will be (this is the evidence "the DOTL" is NOT "PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth [aka the "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT" time period consisting of "judgments" etc]). The problem (one of several) comes in when people do not take the biblical definition of "the DOTL" (2Th2:3) but instead try to make it into a mere 24-hr day OR to say that it STARTS at His/Jesus' "return"/2nd Coming to the earth point in time. It isn't and it doesn't.

John's words in Rev1:19b show that they had audience relevance (as "the things which ARE") even as 1:19c/4:1/1:1[7:3] goes on to speak of the far-future things (things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]/things which must come to pass HEREAFTER [meaning specifically, after the things "which ARE"]--And NOT saying things which would take place "immediately [ADVERB]" or any other adverb like "soon" or "quickly" ])... When I see that Paul spoke of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" in his epistle (which Jesus also had addressed in "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" and which are parallel with the SEALS of Rev6), it informs me that UNTIL "the Day of the Lord" IS PRESENT, the SEALS also have NOT YET been OPENED (and that's not the only passage which informs us of same, it's just one of several...).
TDW - I believe Daniel 12:1-4,6-7,10,11 also speaks of this SAME time period ("the GREAT tribulation") even telling of "specific number of days" (same ones as in 7:25[27]!) and verse 13 goes on to say (to Daniel), "...thou shalt rest [in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected ('to stand again' on the earth)] at the END OF THE DAYS [at the END of the very specific "days" just referred to in this context]"... but no one saw Daniel walking around on the earth in 70ad or thereabouts/thereafter. And the G347 word I've pointed out before (relating to "the MEAL"--see Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal!; also relating to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [i.e. the earthly MK]) INVOLVES also "the Gentiles" sitting down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but their [Israel's] "scattering" ("be led away captive into all the nations" Lk21:24b) needed to happen FIRST (whereas, by contrast, Matthew 24:29-31/Isaiah 27:12-13 speaks OPPOSITELY of their [Israel] being "gathered ONE by ONE" TO worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM (parallel Isaiah 24:[21-22]23 [where vv.21-22 parallel (time-wise) Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5], which hasn't happened yet!)

When one grasps the SEQUENCE issues of the Olivet Discourse, one can see that the "70ad aspects" (Lk21:12-24 [Matt22:7; Lk19:41-44]) are not the equivalent of the "far-future aspects" (Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13, Matt25:31-34, etc) because OPPOSITE THINGS are the [ultimate] outcomes of each of them, distinctly, to where they cannot possibly be speaking of the same things [/same timing]. I've gone over these in past posts.

[continued in next post]

[continued]

TDW - Revelation 1:1 does not use the word "shortly" which is an ADVERB (same with the word "soon [ADVERB]" or "quickly [ADVERB]" etc), but instead uses "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (which, as I've mentioned in previous posts, I believe is parallel time-wise with both Luke 18:8[end of chpt 17 context] ['AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]'] and Romans 16:20 (addressed to 'the Church which is His body' here) ['shall bruise Satan UNDER YOUR FEET IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]'] which have not yet taken place, but awaits our 1Cor6:3[14] thing! and I believe that involves the CORPORATE BODY in its entirety [the Body of Christ/the Church which is His body--Eph1:20-23 WHEN]

As for the phrase "last days," I've stated before that I believe there are THREE, factored from the time of His resurrection/ascension/exaltation (the "after TWO days" [Hosea 5:15-6:3] and "in the THIRD day"<--this one being the same as "the LAST day" (i.e. the 7th Day / sabbatismos of Hebrews 4:9 / the Day of Rest aka the earthly MK age / 7th Millennium; these not being 24-hr days]
TDW - When Peter had said, in Acts 2, "THIS is THAT," he was speaking specifically of what the people saw happening, which is expressed in vv.6-11 (everyone hearing it in their own language/tongue), and what verse 13 says some were "mocking" (thinking these were "full of new wine"). I don't believe that just because he quotes further in Joel that this means that what Peter quotes in vv.19-21 was also present there on that Pentecost [describing certain things] (re: "BEFORE the GREAT" and notable Day of the Lord come... like "moon into blood"/6th SEAL--WELL AFTER the "1st SEAL" thing--neither of these things [Seal #1 or Seal #6] were present in 32ad!)
TDW - Let's be mindful of what Jesus said in John 16:12-15 just before He would go to the Cross:

"12 I have yet many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, shall come, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He may hear, He will speak. And He will declare to you the things coming. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take from that which is Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Because of this, I said that He will take from that which is Mine and will disclose it to you." [we see this later, in what Paul says in 1Cor2:9-10,16b referring to "But God HATH REVEALED them unto us by means of His Spirit... we have the mind of Christ" speaking of that which they further disclosed via the epistles/written in our NT--what Paul called "the Word of God," and his reference to "to complete the Word of God," and "by the word of the Lord," in his writings]

I tend to see that the opposite (of what you see) is more the case, that b/c many believe these things as having taken place in past history, that they "do not care" with regard to that which was stated to take place "after two days," and "in the third day" (pertaining to Israel's "future")
TDW - If there's one thing I am, it is "common"

If there's one thing I am not, it is "Preterist"

Nice talking with you.

Re: the Olivet Discourse...

--Luke 21:12-24a speaks of the "70ad events" (events surrounding; just as Lk19:41-44 and Matt22:7 do), with v.24b following on from there;

--all of the rest of the Olivet Discourse speaks of the "far-future" aspects

[meaning, everything being covered there (in the REST of the Olivet Discourse) speaks of events FOLLOWING "our Rapture/Departure"; and which will (in a short length of time) LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth]


[and]

[quoting Wm Kelly on Lk21]

"But, this is not the only point of interest in this appendix to the prophecy. For the Lord has given us the positive proof, by the way in which verse 32 stands here, that "this generation" cannot mean a mere chronological space of thirty or even one hundred years, for it is brought in after the running out of Gentile times and the coming of the Son of man with power and glory, events still unfulfilled. Its force is moral; not exactly the nation of Israel but that Christ-rejecting race which then refused their Messiah as they do still. This will go on till all these solemn threats of judgment are accomplished. It is profitable to remark that here, not in doctrine or in practice only, but in these unfoldings of the future, the Lord pledges the impossibility of failing in His words. The Lord does not say that this generation "shall not pass away till the temple is destroyed or the city taken," but till all be fulfilled. Now, He had [already JUST] introduced the subsequent treading down of Jerusalem to the end of Israel's trials at His appearing, and He declares that this generation shall not pass away till then; as indeed it is only then grace will form a new [future] generation, the generation [yet] to come. The more we hold fast the continuity of the stream of the prophecy, as distinguished from the crisis in Matthew and Mark, the greater will be seen to be the importance of this remark."

--William Kelly, Luke 21 Commentary

[end quoting; bold, underline, color and brackets mine; source: BibleHub]

I never heard this before. Very interesting and cool find. Do you have a link to this story? This would seal the deal if we can find proof.

Thanks my brother!!

TWD,

Nice try. With all respect, do you see how you must twist and squeeze the Word to make it fit your view? Where in the Olivet does Jesus speak of a 2,000+ year gap from the temple events to some distant future? Where does He say, "These other things, don't worry about, they happen way off in your distant future?" He doesn't. Only the 66-70 AD events are in focus and absolutely everything He predicted came true back then.

The teaching of the end times (of Israel) in the NT began with John the Baptist in Mat 3:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Jerusalem was burned by fire!! The "wrath to come" came in 70 AD. Notice the ax was already laid to the root of the trees??? The ax doesn't sit there for 2,000 years. The Pharisees and Sadducees were going to be responsible for killing their Messiah. They are the ones whose Divine wrath was to be aimed. Jesus repeats this same thing in Mat 23, soon before His death.

33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

He was speaking directly to them and their generation. He said, "THIS GENERATION" not some distant 2,000+ years later generation.

^ Addressing those points in your post in the following 3 posts...

[quoting prior posts]

The info surrounding "the beginning of birth PANGS" reveals a SEQUENCE:

Luke 21 has the "BoBPs" coming AFTER the 70ad events with its "SEE-then-FLEE";

whereas Matthew 24 has the "BoBPs" taking place BEFORE its [later sequentially] "SEE-then-FLEE".


The "BoBPs" ^ are the same identical things in all 3 chpts (Matt24:4-8, Mk13:5-8, Lk21:8-11--KEY!);
but the SEQUENCE is distinct, thus proving that the "SEE-then-FLEEs" are wholly distinct events at wholly distinct time frames...

The 70ad events result in their [that is, Israel] "be led away captive into all the nations" per Lk21:24b (and Jerusalem trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL" [to end of trib, Rev11:2]); whereas the Matthew 24 passage shows its "end" to be their being gathered together ['one BY one'] by angels to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM (comp. Matt24:29-31 with Isa27:12-13 [@ "the GREAT trumpet" (not at our Rapture)]).

Verse 32 of Lk21, where it says, "TILL ALL be fulfilled," necessarily INCLUDES that which v.24 had just said, which was, "and [they] shall be led away captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled." ['the TIMES of the Gentiles' referring to that which started in 606/605bc, involves Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb as "head of gold," and represents "Gentile domination over Israel" (not "the Church age"; and is DISTINCT from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles"]).

Any viewpoint that disregards timing-clues (-wordings) [Amill-teachings and Preterism do this, big time!] is missing the sense, and coming to entirely different conclusions from what was being conveyed

[continued in next post]

[continued]

[quoting prior posts]

I've mentioned this before (you may recall), but everywhere Paul refers to US (the Church which is His body) being "temple," he never uses the definite article ("THE").

In Rev11:1, the wording makes it clear that "the temple of God" and "them that worship THEREIN" are distinct things.


Here's something I posted awhile, [<snip>]... Note especially the parts about the "abomination [SINGULAR]" that both Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 12:11 use (connecting these in particular) and the word for "set up" in Dan12:11--I believe this is important to note:

[quoting that prior post... (pretty sure my highlighting won't transfer here)]

Here's my thinking on that.

I think I've mentioned a cpl times the usage of the "abomination [singular]" that Jesus refers to (where He said in Matt24:15 "When ye therefore see the abomination [singular] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place..."), that this points back to its usage in the singular also in Daniel, that being Daniel 12:11 "the abomination [singular] which maketh desolate SET UP [H5414]..."; so it is this "set up [H5414]" word that I think may help us when looking into The Revelation...

--"set up" - H5414 - "weletet/nathan" - [meaning] "give, put, set [established, permit, executes]"


In Revelation 13:2, it says, "And the beast [from/out of the sea, v.1] that I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like a bear's, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave [G1325] to it his power, and his throne [/seat], and great authority." With G1325 meaning, "give, put, place [set / grant / commit a thing to one / bestow / deliver]" [see also vv.4,5,7]


Could the word in Daniel 12:11 "[be] set up [H5414]" be the link between the two passages, Dan12:11 and Rev13:2 [and also connecting the two "abomination [SINGULAR]" references, Dan12:11 and Matt24:15]? I tend to believe so.

"and the abomination [singular (like Matt24:15)] that maketh desolate set up [H5414]..."

[and]
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12-11.htm [then hover your cursor over the number 5414, here, to see the pop-up extended definition and usages]

[and]

Allow me to just add (what I've said in the past), I do believe the "flee" in Matt24:16 correlates with the "fled/fly" of Rev12:6,14 (with 1260 days remaining until His Second Coming to the earth FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom)… so there's that, to consider also.

[and]

See also Matthew 24:15's "standing [G2476 - histemi]" :

--"standing [G2476 - hestos/histemi]" … "Usage: trans: (a) I make to stand, place, set up, establish, appoint; mid: I place myself, stand, (b) I set in balance, weigh; intrans: (c) I stand, stand by, stand still; met: I stand ready, stand firm, am steadfast." [source: Bible Hub; G2476 in Matthew 24:15 is a "transitive verb" as shown defined in the bolded portion above

(Hebrews 9:8 has a noun form related to this "hestos/histemi [G2476]," where it says, "...the first tabernacle yet having a standing [G4714 - stasis/stasin - noun]")]

[and]

Then see 2 Thessalonians 2:4, similarly (with different verb), and its "G2523 - kathizo/kathisai - sitteth" :

-- "G2523 - kathizo/kathisai - sitteth" … "Usage: (a) trans: I make to sit; I set, appoint, (b) intrans: I sit down, am seated, stay." [source: Bible Hub; bold and underline mine]

[this would be similar to the verse which states, "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves [G2523 - (transitive)] in Moses' seat" Matt23:2 (meaning, "to establish, to set, to appoint" and in other contexts is used like "to confer the kingdom," and "to appoint one to act as judge"]

[end quoting that post]

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[continued]

Keep in mind how the "prophecy" in Daniel (overall) pertains to : "Seventy Weeks are DETERMINED UPON thy [Daniel's] people, AND UPON thy [Daniel's] HOLY CITY..."; and how the 69 Wks total were concluded on Palm Sunday WHEN Jesus SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing (re: "the city") and DID the Zech9:9 thing (re: "Jerusalem" the city); and how the phrase in Lk21:24 says, "[re: Jerusalem trodden] ...until the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled" [see also Rev11:2!], which "the TIMES of the Gentiles" STARTED in 606/605bc (think: Neb's dream with the statue/image, and Neb as "head of gold") and represents "Gentile domination over Israel" (NOT "the church age"; and completely distinct from the phase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles")

[and]

Consider this post I made awhile back (somewhat related):

[quoting]

Consider the following, I've posted before (ignore the middle section [...<snipped>...], as it pertained to the topic of the different thread where I'd first posted this)…

Hebrews 9:8-9 says (in part):

"8 By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the first tabernacle still having a standing [stasin - G4714 (stasis--' from the base of histemi' and related to the words 'apo stasia' [a standing away (from a previous standing)])], 9 which is a symbol ['parable'] for the present time, [...]"

(see also vv.11-12,14,15,23,24,25-28; 10:1-10, esp v.2, vv.12-23; and then also how the "By this" of verse 1 referring back to 7:24-28 among other verses referred back to, by v.8:1)


meaning, a parable for the present time.


And the context referring to the "tabernacle" [in the wilderness] (like Hebrews chpts 3-4 were talking about; see Heb3:2,4).

[...<snip>...]

[and]

Wm Kelly on Hebrews 9:8-9 -

"for the tabernacle in the wilderness is before the writer, not the temple: so we saw in Heb. 3, 4, and so it is here and throughout. This is evident in the early verses of the chapter, summed up in "these things having been thus formed" or prepared, not only the tabernacle but its furniture; which differed in some essential respects from the temple, for it [the temple] was the figure of the millennial kingdom and rest, as the tabernacle is of the resources of grace in Christ for the wilderness and its pilgrimage [i.e. "the Church which is His body" in this present age]. Hence the ark when set in the [later] temple had neither the golden pot with manna therein nor Aaron's rod that budded (2 Chronicles 5:10), which we find carefully named in verse 4. With such wisdom markedly divine was the scripture inspired in the O.T. as in the N.T."

--William Kelly, Commentary on Hebrews 9 [source: Bible Hub; bold and underline mine; bracketed comments mine, parenthesis original]

[end quoting that post]

So, in my Post #172 today, I'm pointing out the distinctions between the Lk21:12-24 section of the Olivet Discourse (regarding the events surrounding 70ad [like Matt22:7 and Lk19:41-44 etc!]), from that of all other parts of the Olivet Discourse (which are [describing events] "far-future" to when written). Jesus uses the "proleptic 'you'" (meaning, basically, "all those in the future, of the same category"--and here [Olivet Discourse], it is, "those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom WAS PROMISED").

Paul uses the "proleptic 'you' [/'we']" also, when he is speaking of US/"the Church which is His body" (to whom "the/our Rapture/Departure" SOLELY pertains... NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time periods [not to OT saints; not to Trib saints; not to MK saints])

[My Post #172 today, corresponds with what I'd put in my Post #167 bottom paragraph; and in my Post #169, both from the other day]

^ The problem (one of many) becomes, when people (and many do this) READ "the Church which is His body" INTO the Olivet Discourse. But that is NOT the Subject being covered in the Olivet Discourse (NOR "our Rapture," at all).


["the Church which is His body" Eph1:20-23 WHEN]


But plz do not miss the fact that I am acknowledging the 70ad events in Luke 21:12-24! (esp vv.23,20 and how that parallels Matt22:7! Lk19:41-44!)

Did people even know America existed until Columbus?

I believe people get the idea of "America in prophecy" from the verse that states:

"... hindermost [H319] of the nations..." - Jeremiah 50:12 [see kjv, akjv, asv, bst, erv, ylt https://biblehub.com/jeremiah/50-12.htm ] (and its related passages and/or context).


[note: my posts have not been addressing THAT ]

It is talking about Babylon.

Jer 50:9-13 RV
(9) For, lo, I will stir up and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of an expert mighty man; none shall return in vain.
(10) And Chaldea shall be a spoil: all that spoil her shall be satisfied, saith the LORD.
(11) Because ye are glad, because ye rejoice, O ye that plunder mine heritage, because ye are wanton as an heifer that treadeth out the corn, and neigh as strong horses;
(12) your mother shall be sore ashamed; she that bare you shall be confounded: behold, she shall be the hindermost (remnant) of the nations, a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert.
(13) Because of the wrath of the LORD it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues.

I think the thought is that Babylon itself was the mother of the "hindermost [H319] of the nations" (as in verse 12).

See the akjv (from the listing at link, prev post) for the translation (which I underlined in my previous post) that sounds most like it could be taken in such a way (as distinct in this way):

"Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bore you shall be ashamed: behold, the last of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert." - Jer50:12akjv


I, myself, have not come to any definitive conclusion either way, on this matter. It doesn't really matter to me, either way.