Is casting Lots to be used today? What about the Fleece and the Urim and Thumim?

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Heyjude

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#1
Sep 7, 2019
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#1
The custom of deciding questions by lot is found in antiquity; both Jews and non - Jews would appeal to the Almighty through various lots to reach a decision. What they were not used for is to divine the future.

The word lot Heb. goral, a "pebble"; hebel, "measuring line, portion"; Gr. lanchano, to "cast lots," Luke 1:9; kleros, "pebble, bit of wood. The bible is not specific on the actual lots used. Their exact type is not mentioned, we can only go by the words used. They could have been sticks of various lengths, or different types of flat stones.

The Jews ritual use was religious, to directly determine a decision. Used as a choice of men for an invading force (Judges 1:1-3, 20:9); of Jerusalem, dividing its spoil or captives among captors, apportionment of possessions, or spoil. (Obad. 11; Joel 3:3; Nah. 3:10; Matt. 27:35). To proportion the land, or inheritance (Deut. 32:9; Josh. 15:1; 1 Chr. 16:18; Pss. 105:11; 125:3 Isa. 17:14; 57:6; Acts 8:21; cf. Acts 13:19). Used in settlement of doubtful questions Prov. 16:33; 18:18, detecting a criminal possibly (Josh. 7:14), appointment of persons to offices or duties, such as the priests (Luke 1:9).

Lots were used a bit differently among the heathen, they divined by means of arrows, two inscribed and one without mark (Ezek. 21:21). "For the king of Babylon stands at the parting of the road, at the fork of the two roads, to use divination: he shakes the arrows, he consults the images, he looks at the liver. "In his right hand is the divination for Jerusalem: to set up battering rams, to call for a slaughter, to lift the voice with shouting, to set battering rams against the gates, to heap up a siege mound, and to build a wall.

In the story of Jonah, Lots were used and were rightly interpreted.

What is the position of casting Lots today and if these Lots are made in the appeal to God the Father in Jesus name, are they right to use? If not can you please show me scripture to support this view? I would be interested to know what you all think!
 
Mii

Mii

Well-known member
#4
Mar 23, 2019
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#4
There's a lot to it unfortunately. I agree that it's putting the Lord to the test in a way, that's as far as I listened because there are certain things I don't do because I think it involves energy best left alone, and the less I know the better.

If you don't know, I think prudence dictates you wait on the Lord.

It's a deep topic and while I'm not interested in discussing "chance" at present, because one would also have to discuss determinism and sovereign will as well as deceptions in these mechanisms. I can't see it fully nor should I be able to. I don't think we ever will. The best thing we can do is practice discernment.


I will say interestingly, my sister brought this up not but two days ago. I don't quite recall why, but I will ponder on what led to it. She pointed out that the casting of lots for the new disciple was before the upper room experience. I didn't have the timeline in mind, and double checked, and sure enough...it was so.

What does "that" say? Certainly something. Did we see it again? Nope.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#5
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#5
Heyjude said:
The custom of deciding questions by lot is found in antiquity; both Jews and non - Jews would appeal to the Almighty through various lots to reach a decision. What they were not used for is to divine the future.

The word lot Heb. goral, a "pebble"; hebel, "measuring line, portion"; Gr. lanchano, to "cast lots," Luke 1:9; kleros, "pebble, bit of wood. The bible is not specific on the actual lots used. Their exact type is not mentioned, we can only go by the words used. They could have been sticks of various lengths, or different types of flat stones.

The Jews ritual use was religious, to directly determine a decision. Used as a choice of men for an invading force (Judges 1:1-3, 20:9); of Jerusalem, dividing its spoil or captives among captors, apportionment of possessions, or spoil. (Obad. 11; Joel 3:3; Nah. 3:10; Matt. 27:35). To proportion the land, or inheritance (Deut. 32:9; Josh. 15:1; 1 Chr. 16:18; Pss. 105:11; 125:3 Isa. 17:14; 57:6; Acts 8:21; cf. Acts 13:19). Used in settlement of doubtful questions Prov. 16:33; 18:18, detecting a criminal possibly (Josh. 7:14), appointment of persons to offices or duties, such as the priests (Luke 1:9).

Lots were used a bit differently among the heathen, they divined by means of arrows, two inscribed and one without mark (Ezek. 21:21). "For the king of Babylon stands at the parting of the road, at the fork of the two roads, to use divination: he shakes the arrows, he consults the images, he looks at the liver. "In his right hand is the divination for Jerusalem: to set up battering rams, to call for a slaughter, to lift the voice with shouting, to set battering rams against the gates, to heap up a siege mound, and to build a wall.

In the story of Jonah, Lots were used and were rightly interpreted.

What is the position of casting Lots today and if these Lots are made in the appeal to God the Father in Jesus name, are they right to use? If not can you please show me scripture to support this view? I would be interested to know what you all think!
Click to expand...
Does the scripture change? Men cast lots and the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD!

I pray, flip a coin and go with it all the time.....when I second guess or "do two out of three".....it hardly ever works out ;)
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#6
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#6
Heyjude said:
What is the position of casting Lots today and if these Lots are made in the appeal to God the Father in Jesus name, are they right to use?
Click to expand...
There is nothing in the New Testament instructing Christians about the use of casting lots. But Probability Theory reflects the casting of lots. In tossing coins the probability of heads is half, so the probability of tails is also half.
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#7
Mar 28, 2019
2,055
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#7
dcontroversal said:
Does the scripture change? Men cast lots and the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD!

I pray, flip a coin and go with it all the time.....when I second guess or "do two out of three".....it hardly ever works out ;)
Click to expand...
haha you are my big bro for this reason i was to ask this question and before i write it you already said it

i was going to ask about if fliping a coin is same today as casting lots and if its ok if i do it. you got me
 
H

Heyjude

Active member
#8
Sep 7, 2019
277
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#8
dcontroversal said:
Does the scripture change? Men cast lots and the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD!

I pray, flip a coin and go with it all the time.....when I second guess or "do two out of three".....it hardly ever works out ;)
Click to expand...
That's so true - we can keep going sometimes trying to get the answer we want in anything in life sometimes. I am not sure if what some call "fate" is at work or "chance" whatever that is, but there are always times (like Jonah) when there can be an answer we are seeking out of many choices and don't know which one is the "right" one. I wonder if there are any examples of "casting lots" going wrong in the scripture and what that tells us. If they go "right" what does that tell us as well? I don't do "lots" myself but have heard others who do and they say, if you seek God first beforehand, why not? I am not sure why not yet as I cannot find anything written directly forbidding it if faith is involved.
 
H

Heyjude

Active member
#10
Sep 7, 2019
277
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#10
Nehemiah6 said:
There is nothing in the New Testament instructing Christians about the use of casting lots. But Probability Theory reflects the casting of lots. In tossing coins the probability of heads is half, so the probability of tails is also half.
Click to expand...
Hey Nehemiah6. Thanks for that. I think a coin tossed split two ways is too random, but the casting of lots (straws?) seems a sensible way to decide something and it was used to pick Matthias. I guess if they all had faith it would be Gods answer - it must have been the way to decide things for a "straight answer"?

Acts 1:26 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
 
H

Heyjude

Active member
#11
Sep 7, 2019
277
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#11
dcontroversal said:
Does the scripture change? Men cast lots and the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD!

I pray, flip a coin and go with it all the time.....when I second guess or "do two out of three".....it hardly ever works out ;)
Click to expand...
'

Haha. Reminds me the film "Diceman"? A man determines what actions to take in life by rolling a set of dice.
 
H

Heyjude

Active member
#12
Sep 7, 2019
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#12
So what is the Urim and the Thummim and what would that be called in todays language?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#13
Jul 18, 2017
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#13
Heyjude said:
I guess if they all had faith it would be Gods answer - it must have been the way to decide things for a "straight answer"?
Click to expand...
Today prayer is meant to lead Christians to the right answer. That was already evident in the apostolic churches.

As they ministered to the Lord (worshiped), and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. (Acts 13:2)

The Holy Spirit may not necessarily speak audibly, but the guidance will be there, and if there is unananimity, that would indicate God's guidance.

And there is no need to concern yourself with Urim and Thummim, since that belonged to the Levitical priesthood, which has vanished. Also the Ark of the Covenant is now in Heaven.
 
H

Heyjude

Active member
#14
Sep 7, 2019
277
121
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#14
Nehemiah6 said:
Today prayer is meant to lead Christians to the right answer. That was already evident in the apostolic churches.

As they ministered to the Lord (worshiped), and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. (Acts 13:2)

The Holy Spirit may not necessarily speak audibly, but the guidance will be there, and if there is unananimity, that would indicate God's guidance.

And there is no need to concern yourself with Urim and Thummim, since that belonged to the Levitical priesthood, which has vanished. Also the Ark of the Covenant is now in Heaven.
Click to expand...
There are many times when there are too many choices to make at a crossroads in life, not always being able to decide which path is the right one. I think casting lots in the case of Matthias was probably a wise way to decide things as they were all of one mind and praying on it no doubt. In that case it would probably be Gods decision but its harder these days to see so many of faith in one group all of one accord that could do this accurately. Who would know? Well God knows so presumably the outcome would go well if faith was present and not go well if faith wasn't present.

I am not " concerned" about Urim and Thummin, I am just curious about it as it is in Scripture for a reason, so would just like to know what it is and its common day name if any.
 
G

garee

Banned
#15
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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#15
Heyjude said:
The custom of deciding questions by lot is found in antiquity; both Jews and non - Jews would appeal to the Almighty through various lots to reach a decision. What they were not used for is to divine the future.

The word lot Heb. goral, a "pebble"; hebel, "measuring line, portion"; Gr. lanchano, to "cast lots," Luke 1:9; kleros, "pebble, bit of wood. The bible is not specific on the actual lots used. Their exact type is not mentioned, we can only go by the words used. They could have been sticks of various lengths, or different types of flat stones.

The Jews ritual use was religious, to directly determine a decision. Used as a choice of men for an invading force (Judges 1:1-3, 20:9); of Jerusalem, dividing its spoil or captives among captors, apportionment of possessions, or spoil. (Obad. 11; Joel 3:3; Nah. 3:10; Matt. 27:35). To proportion the land, or inheritance (Deut. 32:9; Josh. 15:1; 1 Chr. 16:18; Pss. 105:11; 125:3 Isa. 17:14; 57:6; Acts 8:21; cf. Acts 13:19). Used in settlement of doubtful questions Prov. 16:33; 18:18, detecting a criminal possibly (Josh. 7:14), appointment of persons to offices or duties, such as the priests (Luke 1:9).

Lots were used a bit differently among the heathen, they divined by means of arrows, two inscribed and one without mark (Ezek. 21:21). "For the king of Babylon stands at the parting of the road, at the fork of the two roads, to use divination: he shakes the arrows, he consults the images, he looks at the liver. "In his right hand is the divination for Jerusalem: to set up battering rams, to call for a slaughter, to lift the voice with shouting, to set battering rams against the gates, to heap up a siege mound, and to build a wall.

In the story of Jonah, Lots were used and were rightly interpreted.

What is the position of casting Lots today and if these Lots are made in the appeal to God the Father in Jesus name, are they right to use? If not can you please show me scripture to support this view? I would be interested to know what you all think!
Click to expand...
Those examples simply represent the different manner God did bring prophecy when he was . Today now that God is no longer brining new prophecy after any manner the casting of lots is a form of gambling.

The interpretation of lots was simply to divide and give a decission. Nothing other than that.
 
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