Atonement
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I have to respectfully disagree with you about Paul believed, the same Paul was VERY clear when he wrote Rom 8:26-30:
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
So how you can say " that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” means he doesn't.
He writes " for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son", this literally says we are predestine and called by God. It HAS to be that way, it's ALL God lest we boast right? I don't go strait to "God is a monster for killing people, but we were already ALL DEAD, the fact He saves any of us who don't deserve a thing and have NOTHING to lay at His feet, He has to save us. By nature if we can't save ourselves, the bible says we are all God haters and NONE seek Him. If it't true that we can't save ourselves, then by logic it HAS to be God doing the saving right?
I have more to add after lunch. Awesome conversation though.
Here are few more verses to back this up. There are a LOT.
Isaiah 45:12-13
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
Isaiah 44:24-28
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone, Causing the omens of boasters to fail, Making fools out of diviners, Causing wise men to draw back And turning their knowledge into foolishness, Confirming the word of His servant And performing the purpose of His messengers It is I who says of Jerusalem, 'She shall be inhabited!' And of the cities of Judah, 'They shall be built.' And I will raise up her ruins again.
"It is I who says to the depth of the sea, 'Be dried up!' And I will make your rivers dry. "It is I who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd! And he will perform all My desire ' And he declares of Jerusalem, 'She will be built,' And of the temple, 'Your foundation will be laid.'"
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Proverbs 16:9
The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
Isaiah 14:24-27
The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand, to break Assyria in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains Then his yoke will be removed from them and his burden removed from their shoulder. "This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations.
"For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?"
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
So how you can say " that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” means he doesn't.
He writes " for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son", this literally says we are predestine and called by God. It HAS to be that way, it's ALL God lest we boast right? I don't go strait to "God is a monster for killing people, but we were already ALL DEAD, the fact He saves any of us who don't deserve a thing and have NOTHING to lay at His feet, He has to save us. By nature if we can't save ourselves, the bible says we are all God haters and NONE seek Him. If it't true that we can't save ourselves, then by logic it HAS to be God doing the saving right?
I have more to add after lunch. Awesome conversation though.
Here are few more verses to back this up. There are a LOT.
Isaiah 45:12-13
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
Isaiah 44:24-28
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone, Causing the omens of boasters to fail, Making fools out of diviners, Causing wise men to draw back And turning their knowledge into foolishness, Confirming the word of His servant And performing the purpose of His messengers It is I who says of Jerusalem, 'She shall be inhabited!' And of the cities of Judah, 'They shall be built.' And I will raise up her ruins again.
"It is I who says to the depth of the sea, 'Be dried up!' And I will make your rivers dry. "It is I who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd! And he will perform all My desire ' And he declares of Jerusalem, 'She will be built,' And of the temple, 'Your foundation will be laid.'"
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Proverbs 16:9
The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
Isaiah 14:24-27
The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand, to break Assyria in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains Then his yoke will be removed from them and his burden removed from their shoulder. "This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations.
"For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?"
I have to respectfully disagree with you about Paul believed, the same Paul was VERY clear when he wrote Rom 8:26-30:
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
So how you can say " that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” means he doesn't.
He writes " for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son", this literally says we are predestine and called by God. It HAS to be that way, it's ALL God lest we boast right? I don't go strait to "God is a monster for killing people, but we were already ALL DEAD, the fact He saves any of us who don't deserve a thing and have NOTHING to lay at His feet, He has to save us. By nature if we can't save ourselves, the bible says we are all God haters and NONE seek Him. If it't true that we can't save ourselves, then by logic it HAS to be God doing the saving right?
I have more to add after lunch. Awesome conversation though.
Here are few more verses to back this up. There are a LOT.
Isaiah 45:12-13
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
Isaiah 44:24-28
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone, Causing the omens of boasters to fail, Making fools out of diviners, Causing wise men to draw back And turning their knowledge into foolishness, Confirming the word of His servant And performing the purpose of His messengers It is I who says of Jerusalem, 'She shall be inhabited!' And of the cities of Judah, 'They shall be built.' And I will raise up her ruins again.
"It is I who says to the depth of the sea, 'Be dried up!' And I will make your rivers dry. "It is I who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd! And he will perform all My desire ' And he declares of Jerusalem, 'She will be built,' And of the temple, 'Your foundation will be laid.'"
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Proverbs 16:9
The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
Isaiah 14:24-27
The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand, to break Assyria in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains Then his yoke will be removed from them and his burden removed from their shoulder. "This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations.
"For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?"
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
So how you can say " that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” means he doesn't.
He writes " for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son", this literally says we are predestine and called by God. It HAS to be that way, it's ALL God lest we boast right? I don't go strait to "God is a monster for killing people, but we were already ALL DEAD, the fact He saves any of us who don't deserve a thing and have NOTHING to lay at His feet, He has to save us. By nature if we can't save ourselves, the bible says we are all God haters and NONE seek Him. If it't true that we can't save ourselves, then by logic it HAS to be God doing the saving right?
I have more to add after lunch. Awesome conversation though.
Here are few more verses to back this up. There are a LOT.
Isaiah 45:12-13
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
Isaiah 44:24-28
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone, Causing the omens of boasters to fail, Making fools out of diviners, Causing wise men to draw back And turning their knowledge into foolishness, Confirming the word of His servant And performing the purpose of His messengers It is I who says of Jerusalem, 'She shall be inhabited!' And of the cities of Judah, 'They shall be built.' And I will raise up her ruins again.
"It is I who says to the depth of the sea, 'Be dried up!' And I will make your rivers dry. "It is I who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd! And he will perform all My desire ' And he declares of Jerusalem, 'She will be built,' And of the temple, 'Your foundation will be laid.'"
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Proverbs 16:9
The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
Isaiah 14:24-27
The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand, to break Assyria in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains Then his yoke will be removed from them and his burden removed from their shoulder. "This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations.
"For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?"
I think we look at this differently because the way you say It comes off deceptive.
I would say HE gives grace to ALL but some will not accept this saving grace and so those that do not accept this grace are not HIS sheep but they were given the opportunity to be HIS sheep.
Thats clearer than saying HE gives grace only to some and those become HIS sheep.
I would say HE gives grace to ALL but some will not accept this saving grace and so those that do not accept this grace are not HIS sheep but they were given the opportunity to be HIS sheep.
Thats clearer than saying HE gives grace only to some and those become HIS sheep.
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The GOD you serve Is greater than the GOD I serve and then you turn left around and say HE provides limited atonement?My GOD IS ALLMIGHTY and HE loves righteousness.In other words If GOD IS ALLMIGHTY and HE loves righteousness WHY would HE only provide limited atonement
do you understand what ALLMIGHTY means,do you know what HE loves righteousness means?I'm done,you go ahead and keep talking about the fleshy GOD you serve?
do you understand what ALLMIGHTY means,do you know what HE loves righteousness means?I'm done,you go ahead and keep talking about the fleshy GOD you serve?
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth. If we see a verse that says God does not chasten some, that would mean that he does not love them. God only corrects his children, just as our earthly fathers usually do not correct children that are not his. Psalms 73:5 - They are not in trouble as other men, neither are they PLAGUED (Greek=divinely punished) like other men.