Is irresistible grace (effectual calling) a biblical doctrine?

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Is irresistible grace (effectual calling) a biblical doctrine?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 44.4%
  • No

    Votes: 9 50.0%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 1 5.6%

  • Total voters
    18

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#41
I deal with it by reading the parable of some who are called who didn't want to come and then the King tells them to invite everyone Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

The other passages dealing with the "Many are called few chosen" also mentions that the first shall be last, I believe this is in reference to the Jews who were close to God and gentiles who were far off, being brought in.

I believe Acts is correct that these men were appointed to eternal life, just as was the case with Cornelius. Before Cornelius was even saved his prayers were heard by God, then seeing this devout man God sent Peter to preach to him to get the man saved.

Do I believe God elects inviduals to salvation? That is something I honestly cannot answer. My mind going to Jeremiah and Paul who were called to service, but at the same time even Paul said he needs to be careful so he himself wont be disqualified. Honest answer is, let me think about it friend.
Since I'm Reformed you know my views on that. :)

By the way, I believe the disqualification regards the ability to serve others by preaching the gospel. I think the same thing about the church in Revelation whose lampstand was going to be removed due to their problems. They were no longer going to be able to shine with the light of the gospel and to fulfill their responsibility to witness to the world.

Unfortunately too many disqualified pastors go to other churches and continue to preach even though they are disqualified.

I believe there is an election to mission, but I'm positive there is an election to salvation, as Jesus has been given a specific people for his possession by the Father.

Anyways, thanks for the convo.
 

TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
460
247
43
#42
Since I'm Reformed you know my views on that. :)

By the way, I believe the disqualification regards the ability to serve others by preaching the gospel. I think the same thing about the church in Revelation whose lampstand was going to be removed due to their problems. They were no longer going to be able to shine with the light of the gospel and to fulfill their responsibility to witness to the world.

Unfortunately too many disqualified pastors go to other churches and continue to preach even though they are disqualified.

I believe there is an election to mission, but I'm positive there is an election to salvation, as Jesus has been given a specific people for his possession by the Father.

Anyways, thanks for the convo.
Cheers. I enjoy this kind of conversation as well. I understand it might be difficult to follow my thoughts since I do not follow any systematic.

A quick summary would be something like this:
I believe the Bible has given us two perspectives on things.

One is our perspective and duty, which is to obey God, keep His commandments, repent and believe the Gospel, preach the Gospel to every creature. Draw nigh to God and God will draw nigh unto you. That is our side of the "coin".
On the other side we have God's perspective, and from God's side its all said and done already, God knows the beginning from the end and He is the Alpha and Omega, so to Him nothing comes as a surprise and the amount of people saved is already fixed in eternity.

If there is a label for that, let me know ;)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
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#43
Cheers. I enjoy this kind of conversation as well. I understand it might be difficult to follow my thoughts since I do not follow any systematic.

A quick summary would be something like this:
I believe the Bible has given us two perspectives on things.

One is our perspective and duty, which is to obey God, keep His commandments, repent and believe the Gospel, preach the Gospel to every creature. Draw nigh to God and God will draw nigh unto you. That is our side of the "coin".
On the other side we have God's perspective, and from God's side its all said and done already, God knows the beginning from the end and He is the Alpha and Omega, so to Him nothing comes as a surprise and the amount of people saved is already fixed in eternity.

If there is a label for that, let me know ;)
I'd call that Reformed theology :)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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1,928
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#45
But I believe that anyone can be saved if they repent and believe the Gospel.
I believe that too.

The question is, what causes them to repent and believe?

The answer is, God regenerates them, giving them a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This results in repentance and faith.

The whole argument is, what causes repentance and faith? In the case of free-willers, they believe the heart of stone can produce it. We don't..we believe God gives the person a heart of flesh that enables the response.
 

TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
460
247
43
#46
I believe that too.

The question is, what causes them to repent and believe?

The answer is, God regenerates them, giving them a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This results in repentance and faith.

The whole argument is, what causes repentance and faith? In the case of free-willers, they believe the heart of stone can produce it. We don't..we believe God gives the person a heart of flesh that enables the response.
I would say what causes repentance and faith is the Holy Spirit that was sent unto the world to convict the world of sin; especially of the sin of unbelief it says.

Much like the men in Acts 2 to whom Peter was preaching were pricked in their hearts, and asked Peter what shall we do to be saved? It is at that moment where the choice is to be made, when the conscience is pricked and we deny the call over and over again our conscience becomes seared with a hot iron. In other words God will send the strong delusion at that point and give us over to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not convenient.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
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#47
I would say what causes repentance and faith is the Holy Spirit that was sent unto the world to convict the world of sin; especially of the sin of unbelief it says.

Much like the men in Acts 2 to whom Peter was preaching were pricked in their hearts, and asked Peter what shall we do to be saved? It is at that moment where the choice is to be made, when the conscience is pricked and we deny the call over and over again our conscience becomes seared with a hot iron. In other words God will send the strong delusion at that point and give us over to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not convenient.
The Holy Spirit regenerates the elect, causing the faith and repentance response.

A stony heart, which is possessed by all men prior to regeneration, cannot respond in faith and repentance. It requires a heart of flesh.

The other view basically focuses on man and his "free will" response.

But, this ignores the state of his heart, which is stony and dead..Ephesians 2:1-10.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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1,928
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#48
Born again-ism

I have a friend who has written a tract called “Born Again-ism.” Everybody in America is born again, and the reason why they’re born again is because of most of the preachers and pastors who do not understand the Gospel nor the power of the Gospel and that we've reduced the Gospel down to four spiritual laws and five things God wants you to know. We have done the very same thing that Catholicism has done since its beginning—turned salvation into nothing more than a few little steps and a superstitious prayer at the end, turned salvation into nothing more than a mere human decision whereby a man decides for himself simply to jump out of the line going into Hell in order to jump into the line going to Heaven.

But when you grasp the power of regeneration, everything else begins to fall in place and until you grasp the power of regeneration, you cannot understand the doctrine and the calling to self-denial.

Let me just give you an example ….another little definition I’ve written about man.

Man is a fallen, radically depraved, spiritually dead, morally corrupt, sin-loving, God-hating creature. In the very core of his being, he is as opposed to God as the devil himself. He cannot change and has no desire to do so. He loves a lie and will do everything in his power to restrain and suppress any and every truth about God and the more he knows about God, the more he hates Him, because God is righteous and man is evil.

Now, how do you take something like that, how do you expect a creature like that to all of a sudden hear a Gospel message of self-denial and turn his back on absolutely everything he is and at all cost follow the Christ? How can you expect a man to take a journey of a thousand miles if he’s neither willing nor able to take the first step? And this idea of, well, as the brother put it, “Well, let’s get them saved and then gradually introduce them to salvation and to discipleship and to the call to self-denial.” But I want to tell you something. It is not any easier to coax a dead man to take one step than it is to coax him to take a million. If he’s dead, he’s dead. And within that is found the power of regeneration.

Because I, as a preacher, an itinerant, nothing, little preacher, because of my belief in the power of the Gospel and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, I can look at the most defiled man on the face of the earth and tell him to forsake his mother, his father, his lands, his home, his own life, and I can expect that, out of the group of them, somebody’s coming out. I do not have to lay
down the bar on the Gospel.

I can bid men to come and die from the very moment I speak with them because I believe in the power of resurrection.

Someone says, “How can you expect a man to do that?” I say, “Well, let me answer that with another question. How can Ezekiel command bones to live? And how can Jesus cry out to a dead man and tell him to come forth?” Because salvation is not just some mere, tiny, puny, human decision.

It is the supernatural work of God.

Paul Washer
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#49
The Holy Spirit regenerates the elect, causing the faith and repentance response.

A stony heart, which is possessed by all men prior to regeneration, cannot respond in faith and repentance. It requires a heart of flesh.

The other view basically focuses on man and his "free will" response.

But, this ignores the state of his heart, which is stony and dead..Ephesians 2:1-10.
All men are elect to condemnation until they hear the word of God and are born again.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#50
Born again-ism

I have a friend who has written a tract called “Born Again-ism.” Everybody in America is born again, and the reason why they’re born again is because of most of the preachers and pastors who do not understand the Gospel nor the power of the Gospel and that we've reduced the Gospel down to four spiritual laws and five things God wants you to know. We have done the very same thing that Catholicism has done since its beginning—turned salvation into nothing more than a few little steps and a superstitious prayer at the end, turned salvation into nothing more than a mere human decision whereby a man decides for himself simply to jump out of the line going into Hell in order to jump into the line going to Heaven.

But when you grasp the power of regeneration, everything else begins to fall in place and until you grasp the power of regeneration, you cannot understand the doctrine and the calling to self-denial.

Let me just give you an example ….another little definition I’ve written about man.

Man is a fallen, radically depraved, spiritually dead, morally corrupt, sin-loving, God-hating creature. In the very core of his being, he is as opposed to God as the devil himself. He cannot change and has no desire to do so. He loves a lie and will do everything in his power to restrain and suppress any and every truth about God and the more he knows about God, the more he hates Him, because God is righteous and man is evil.

Now, how do you take something like that, how do you expect a creature like that to all of a sudden hear a Gospel message of self-denial and turn his back on absolutely everything he is and at all cost follow the Christ? How can you expect a man to take a journey of a thousand miles if he’s neither willing nor able to take the first step? And this idea of, well, as the brother put it, “Well, let’s get them saved and then gradually introduce them to salvation and to discipleship and to the call to self-denial.” But I want to tell you something. It is not any easier to coax a dead man to take one step than it is to coax him to take a million. If he’s dead, he’s dead. And within that is found the power of regeneration.

Because I, as a preacher, an itinerant, nothing, little preacher, because of my belief in the power of the Gospel and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, I can look at the most defiled man on the face of the earth and tell him to forsake his mother, his father, his lands, his home, his own life, and I can expect that, out of the group of them, somebody’s coming out. I do not have to lay
down the bar on the Gospel.

I can bid men to come and die from the very moment I speak with them because I believe in the power of resurrection.

Someone says, “How can you expect a man to do that?” I say, “Well, let me answer that with another question. How can Ezekiel command bones to live? And how can Jesus cry out to a dead man and tell him to come forth?” Because salvation is not just some mere, tiny, puny, human decision.

It is the supernatural work of God.

Paul Washer
Most of this is simply not true. It is mostly biased opinion and private interpretation of Gods word. It violates the word of God.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Calvinism even cloaked in the veil of Reformed theology still does not represent the true gospel of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
#51
Most of this is simply not true. It is mostly biased opinion and private interpretation of Gods word. It violates the word of God.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Calvinism even cloaked in the veil of Reformed theology still does not represent the true gospel of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
This doesn't even make sense.

I agree that all are subject to futility prior to salvation, but only the elect are delivered from this.

I have already presented Scriptures regarding election of specific individuals. All folks have to do is review the list at the beginning of the thread.

Titus 3:5 supports Reformed theology..it doesn't refute it :)

Decisional regeneration is a defective theology. It claims that a heart of stone must produce faith and repentance from it's stony resources, in order to gain a heart of flesh which can obey and please God.

The reality is that God gives the elect a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone, and faith and repentance proceeds from it.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#52
This doesn't even make sense.

I agree that all are subject to futility prior to salvation, but only the elect are delivered from this.

I have already presented Scriptures regarding election of specific individuals. All folks have to do is review the list at the beginning of the thread.

Titus 3:5 supports Reformed theology..it doesn't refute it :)

Decisional regeneration is a defective theology. It claims that a heart of stone must produce faith and repentance from it's stony resources, in order to gain a heart of flesh which can obey and please God.

The reality is that God gives the elect a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone, and faith and repentance proceeds from it.
You are claiming that a man must be regenerated before he can be saved. Regeneration is the act of salvation. You use the figurative heart of stone as though it were literal. The defective theology here is yours not the theology of the bible.

Calvinism does not reflect reformed theology. Calvinism is a variant of reformed theology designed and intended to refute Arminianism which also incorrectly presents the gospel. It is a simple case of two wrongs do not make a right.

Election is the result not the cause of salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
#53
Most of this is simply not true. It is mostly biased opinion and private interpretation of Gods word. It violates the word of God.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Calvinism even cloaked in the veil of Reformed theology still does not represent the true gospel of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
How does your verse disprove what Paul Washer says?

Or, how does it conflict with the constant claim of others including Billy Graham that "you must be born again"?

Billy Graham constantly quoted Jesus in John 3.

However, perhaps you would like to edit Jesus' words and claim that you must exercise faith and repentance, of your own resources, and then you are born again, which gives you spiritual resources?

Does it not take spiritual resources to exhibit faith and repentance?

This isn't brain surgery.

The simple fact is, the free-willer claim is that carnal people, without spiritual resources, can produce faith and repentance, which are spiritual works of God.

LOL

It is ridiculous to make such a claim, yet you people simply repeat it over and over and over and over and over again, and resolutely deny anyone who says anything to the contrary.

By the way, I don't waste my time trying to convince you. I am merely shadow-boxing for the benefit of anyone who might hear it and realize the incoherency of the free-willer argument.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
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#54
You are claiming that a man must be regenerated before he can be saved. Regeneration is the act of salvation. You use the figurative heart of stone as though it were literal. The defective theology here is yours not the theology of the bible.

Calvinism does not reflect reformed theology. Calvinism is a variant of reformed theology designed and intended to refute Arminianism which also incorrectly presents the gospel. It is a simple case of two wrongs do not make a right.

Election is the result not the cause of salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

That doesn't even make sense.

The word "elect" MEANS to "choose" and it is obvious God makes the choice. 1 Cor 1:26ff is very clear on this, and the fact that he has elected individuals with humble characteristics in order to glorify himself in weakness.

The Bible itself uses the phrase "heart of stone" to describe the fallen man, and "heart of flesh" to describe the saved man. If you have an issue with using this figurative language, the issue is with God's word and not with me.

Yes, a man must be born again or regenerated prior to salvation. It is a mighty work of God.

The man doesn't save himself by faith and repentance from his own resources, and then he is regenerated. That is the backwards free-willer view.

Let alone the fact that you are an open theist who claims God doesn't even know the future. I am not sure why anyone would take you seriously.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
#55
You are claiming that a man must be regenerated before he can be saved. Regeneration is the act of salvation. You use the figurative heart of stone as though it were literal. The defective theology here is yours not the theology of the bible.

Calvinism does not reflect reformed theology. Calvinism is a variant of reformed theology designed and intended to refute Arminianism which also incorrectly presents the gospel. It is a simple case of two wrongs do not make a right.

Election is the result not the cause of salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I am amazed that free-willers twist Scripture around, so that man chooses, rather than God choosing.

It is a simple denial of the clear teaching of Scripture because man thinks it cannot be true because if it is, then God doesn't behave like he deems to be "fair".

Well, if I practiced that logic in terms of eternal punishment, I would likely deny eternal torment, too.

Roger, do you believe in eternal torment? I am curious.

If not, what do you believe instead?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#56
How does your verse disprove what Paul Washer says?

Or, how does it conflict with the constant claim of others including Billy Graham that "you must be born again"?

Billy Graham constantly quoted Jesus in John 3.

However, perhaps you would like to edit Jesus' words and claim that you must exercise faith and repentance, of your own resources, and then you are born again, which gives you spiritual resources?

Does it not take spiritual resources to exhibit faith and repentance?

This isn't brain surgery.

The simple fact is, the free-willer claim is that carnal people, without spiritual resources, can produce faith and repentance, which are spiritual works of God.

LOL

It is ridiculous to make such a claim, yet you people simply repeat it over and over and over and over and over again, and resolutely deny anyone who says anything to the contrary.

By the way, I don't waste my time trying to convince you. I am merely shadow-boxing for the benefit of anyone who might hear it and realize the incoherency of the free-willer argument.
How noble of you. Election is the result of salvation not the cause. Quote all the scripture you like but not a single scripture will support your errant doctrine.

Faith is the work of God done through the hearing of the word of God. All that have ears can hear. Not all will believe and if that is a problem for you then resort to manufactured doctrine to explain it away. Calvinism provides an easy excuse to abandon souls that are in the valley of decision.

Adam chose to sin and man must choose to receive redemption. Cain rejected Gods redemptive offer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#57
I am amazed that free-willers twist Scripture around, so that man chooses, rather than God choosing.

It is a simple denial of the clear teaching of Scripture because man thinks it cannot be true because if it is, then God doesn't behave like he deems to be "fair".

Well, if I practiced that logic in terms of eternal punishment, I would likely deny eternal torment, too.

Roger, do you believe in eternal torment? I am curious.

If not, what do you believe instead?
God chose to make men choose.

Scripture teaches that the lake of fire burns for all of eternity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
#58
You are claiming that a man must be regenerated before he can be saved. Regeneration is the act of salvation. You use the figurative heart of stone as though it were literal. The defective theology here is yours not the theology of the bible.

Calvinism does not reflect reformed theology. Calvinism is a variant of reformed theology designed and intended to refute Arminianism which also incorrectly presents the gospel. It is a simple case of two wrongs do not make a right.

Election is the result not the cause of salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Roger, in your worldview, what degree of corruption did the Fall cause in man's nature?

Total, partial, or none?

Does this corruption affect man's ability to respond to a general presentation of the gospel message?

Maybe you'd like to describe your position on these key questions, using Scripture.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
#59
How noble of you. Election is the result of salvation not the cause. Quote all the scripture you like but not a single scripture will support your errant doctrine.

Faith is the work of God done through the hearing of the word of God. All that have ears can hear. Not all will believe and if that is a problem for you then resort to manufactured doctrine to explain it away. Calvinism provides an easy excuse to abandon souls that are in the valley of decision.

Adam chose to sin and man must choose to receive redemption. Cain rejected Gods redemptive offer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
All anyone has to do is read John 6, 8, 10, Ephesians 2, 1 Corinthians 1, and Romans 8-11 to disprove your claims.

In particular, 1 Corinthians 1:26ff disproves this idea that people elect themselves. It is plain that GOD CHOOSES, not the man.

Yet, that can't be true in your worldview because you believe you chose yourself.

I think you just want to keep me busy referring to Scriptures I have already mentioned at the beginning of the thread. i have made my point logically in the thread already. I am not going to continue repeating them.

I have more interesting threads to create, and need to focus on them.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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#60
How noble of you. Election is the result of salvation not the cause. Quote all the scripture you like but not a single scripture will support your errant doctrine.

Faith is the work of God done through the hearing of the word of God. All that have ears can hear. Not all will believe and if that is a problem for you then resort to manufactured doctrine to explain it away. Calvinism provides an easy excuse to abandon souls that are in the valley of decision.

Adam chose to sin and man must choose to receive redemption. Cain rejected Gods redemptive offer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
And election took place before ”Let there be light...” Conversion happens in time, but election took place before time began. Our conversion is the result of being elected before the world came into existence. :)