Is total depravity (radical corruption) a biblical teaching?

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Is the doctrine of total depravity (radical corruption) biblical?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 68.2%

  • No

    Votes: 7 31.8%

  • Not sure

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    22
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#141
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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#141
UnitedWithChrist said:
Reformed individuals believe in radical corruption.

We acknowledge that man has a creaturely free will that is constrained by his fallen nature. He freely sins because he is a sinner by nature.

Some free-willers believe in partial depravity, but others don't believe in depravity at all. They do not believe man's nature was corrupted by the Fall.

This fringe would be called Pelagianism.

I'm not sure why you are framing the discussion in terms of "free will", though. I would focus on the degree of curruption. You seem to deny that the Fall has affected mankind in terms of his nature.

Do you believe the Fall caused a corruption of man's nature? Or, perhaps, do you believe that man sins as a result of the bad example of his ancestors?

If the former, this is proper original sin, and is orthodox. If the latter, this is Pelagianism, and is unorthodox.

If you believe the Fall caused a partial corruption of man's nature, but the person can, without regeneration, exercise faith and repentance in order to come into a right relationship with God, this is semi-Pelagianism.

So, I would frame the discussion in terms of radical corruption, partial corruption, or no corruption. Which option do you believe in?
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Around here, we have some really good ppl(good by our standards, but not God’s) who are as honest as the day is long, would give you the shirt off their back, help you whenever you need help, give ppl in need whatever it is they need. But when it comes to going to church, they won’t do it. Other believers around here will say that seeing they’re really not that bad, it shouldn’t be that hard for them to be saved, seeing they so freely and gladly help others.

That shows me they have no clue the depths of sin and how corrupted the heart of the lost person is. Yet, they think it shouldn’t be that hard to be saved? How can ppl who don’t seek God be saved? How?!?!?
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#142
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
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#142
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Around here, we have some really good ppl(good by our standards, but not God’s) who are as honest as the day is long, would give you the shirt off their back, help you whenever you need help, give ppl in need whatever it is they need. But when it comes to going to church, they won’t do it. Other believers around here will say that seeing they’re really not that bad, it shouldn’t be that hard for them to be saved, seeing they so freely and gladly help others.

That shows me they have no clue the depths of sin and how corrupted the heart of the lost person is. Yet, they think it shouldn’t be that hard to be saved? How can ppl who don’t seek God be saved? How?!?!?
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Actually, I think those kinds of folk can be more resistant to salvation, because they don't think they need it.

Many of them are in the church, by the way. Good little Johnny went up to the front of the church, to the praise of his Sunday School teacher, but he wasn't really regenerated, and neither the Sunday school teacher nor Johnny gave God praise, but Johnny was repeatedly reinforced with praise for walking up front and accepting Jesus into his heart. But, was he really regenerated?
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#143
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#143
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Around here, we have some really good ppl(good by our standards, but not God’s) who are as honest as the day is long, would give you the shirt off their back, help you whenever you need help, give ppl in need whatever it is they need. But when it comes to going to church, they won’t do it. Other believers around here will say that seeing they’re really not that bad, it shouldn’t be that hard for them to be saved, seeing they so freely and gladly help others.

That shows me they have no clue the depths of sin and how corrupted the heart of the lost person is. Yet, they think it shouldn’t be that hard to be saved? How can ppl who don’t seek God be saved? How?!?!?
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Curious isn't it that you fail to comprehend the goodness of God. As corrupt and lost as man can be Christ is still able to save them. Christ died for the most miserable of men. Christ to this day continues to intercede for the most miserable of men both saved and unsaved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#144
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
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#144
notuptome said:
Curious isn't it that you fail to comprehend the goodness of God. As corrupt and lost as man can be Christ is still able to save them. Christ died for the most miserable of men. Christ to this day continues to intercede for the most miserable of men both saved and unsaved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Is Christ interceding for those who will never come to faith?

If so, then his intercession is valueless, because it will not be effective.

However, if I'm not mistaken, your Christ doesn't even know the future, so he doesn't know that, so perhaps it makes sense in the open theist worldview.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#145
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#145
notuptome said:
Curious isn't it that you fail to comprehend the goodness of God. As corrupt and lost as man can be Christ is still able to save them. Christ died for the most miserable of men. Christ to this day continues to intercede for the most miserable of men both saved and unsaved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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No. I know the goodness of God. It was what lead me(notice it wasn’t I who lead me, but God leading me) to repentance[Romans 2:4]. :) As @UnitedWithChrist previously stated, the Christ is not interceding with all mankind but solely for believers.

And Christ does save the worst of sinners. If He saved the best, none would be saved, seeing none are good[Romans 3]. :)
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#146
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
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#146
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
No. I know the goodness of God. It was what lead me(notice it wasn’t I who lead me, but God leading me) to repentance[Romans 2:4]. :) As @UnitedWithChrist previously stated, the Christ is not interceding with all mankind but solely for believers.

And Christ does save the worst of sinners. If He saved the best, none would be saved, seeing none are good[Romans 3]. :)
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Right..what we are dealing with is that free-willers don't acknowledge radical corruption.

That is why regeneration is needed. We have been radically corrupted by the Fall and can't even make spiritual decisions.

As unsaved people, we have messed up hearts that are spiritually insane. God needs to come in, and reorder the chaos before we can even think on the spiritual realm.

It's funny how this is so clear, from both Scripture and experience, yet free-willers seem oblivious to it.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#147
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#147
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
No. I know the goodness of God. It was what lead me(notice it wasn’t I who lead me, but God leading me) to repentance[Romans 2:4]. :) As @UnitedWithChrist previously stated, the Christ is not interceding with all mankind but solely for believers.

And Christ does save the worst of sinners. If He saved the best, none would be saved, seeing none are good[Romans 3]. :)
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You have no basis to state that Christ does not intercede for lost souls. To quote your favorite theologian that is absurd. Christ prayed for them while He was no the cross.

If men could not choose they would be not held accountable.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
G

garee

Banned
#148
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#148
notuptome said:
You have no basis to state that Christ does not intercede for lost souls. To quote your favorite theologian that is absurd. Christ prayed for them while He was no the cross.

If men could not choose they would be not held accountable.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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I would offer. In all things God must do the first work . We cannot choose to believe what something is unless what is concealed is first made known . He gives his understanding to a kingdom of priest as believers .I believe we can see how we hear according to the parable. Again an honor hid from the world

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Like that of our Faithfull Creator who said. . let there be Light and there was. Without faith the plan needed . . nothing causes nothing. It would be a dead work silence create nothing, nothing would appear .

We are saved by Christ's work of faith as a labor of his love that does work in us to both will and perform His good pleasure .And not a labor of our own imagination . We are his created masterpiece

Faith without works is dead .Just as these bodies of death without a spirit

No man of his own volition can seek and therefore understand.

Roman3: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

it would seem he chose us giving us the faith to chose to do his will if we do not harden our hearts. .


Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#149
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#149
Whispered said:
And yet all three of you are RT /Calvinist/TULIP defenders. And P4T has a signature style much like your own, promoting RT/Calvinism.
While UWC added this to their signature:Warning: I am not entertained by the weak, emasculated god of free-willers, who cannot accomplish his purposes.
And P4T has this message added on for the non's among us.
Plagiarus The (not so) Great
To many it isn't "Jesus Saves!" it's "Choosing Saves!"
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You truly are stricken with some form of paranoia and undue suspicion.

I'm not @UnitedWithChrist and he is not me.

The reason our "signatures" are unified in theology is due to the fact we all herald the one true Gospel.
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#150
Aug 12, 2019
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#150
preacher4truth said:
You truly are stricken with some form of paranoia and undue suspicion.

I'm not @UnitedWithChrist and he is not me.

The reason our "signatures" are unified in theology is due to the fact we all herald the one true Gospel.
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The only thing I can see similar is that we both think some have an idolatrous image of God that is not informed by Scripture.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#152
Jul 18, 2017
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#152
garee said:
No man of his own volition can seek and therefore understand.
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Why do you think the Gospel was given? Read and study Romans 10 and be not unbelieving.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#155
Jul 31, 2013
36,682
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#155
Nehemiah6 said:
Why do you think the Gospel was given? Read and study Romans 10 and be not unbelieving.
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Romans 10:20
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought Me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after Me.

The people who found God through the gospel were not looking for Him. That is not of their own volition, but by the will of God who revealed Himself to them

Per Romans 10
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#156
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#156
notuptome said:
You have no basis to state that Christ does not intercede for lost souls. To quote your favorite theologian that is absurd. Christ prayed for them while He was no the cross.

If men could not choose they would be not held accountable.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Scripture easily refutes you my friend.

Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.[Heb. 7:25]

Now, in John 6 we see that no one can come to the Christ unless drawn by the Father.


Here’s the Greek for ‘draw’.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g1670

It means to literally drag off. It’s found in John 18:10 when Peter drew his sword, in John 21:11 when Peter drew the net full of fish to the shore, and a few other places. It means when drawn, they are effectively drawn, iow, they come to Him. :)
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#157
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#157
Nehemiah6 said:
Why do you think the Gospel was given? Read and study Romans 10 and be not unbelieving.
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You dont understand Romans 10 because you dont understand Roman's 9, nor do you understand Romans 1-8.

For good measure, you dont understand Romans 10-16 either.

You've made up your own gospel of decisional regeneration by mans ability. That's a false man made gospel made out of fear of trusting God solely, so you have man step in to help get himself into heaven by vote.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#158
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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#158
preacher4truth said:
You dont understand Romans 10 because you dont understand Roman's 9, nor do you understand Romans 1-8.

For good measure, you dont understand Romans 10-16 either.

You've made up your own gospel of decisional regeneration by mans ability. That's a false man made gospel made out of fear of trusting God solely, so you have man step in to help get himself into heaven by vote.
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Soooo....you’re saying he doesn’t stand the whole of Romans? ;) :D
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#159
Jul 31, 2013
36,682
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#159
Nehemiah6 said:
be not unbelieving
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When you pray for someone's salvation are you praying to that person or to God?
If it is not God who intercedes in a person to open their ears to hear, their minds to understand, and God who turns their heart to receive the gospel -- then why are you bothering to pray to Him? For what purpose?
 
TooFastTurtle

TooFastTurtle

Active member
#160
Apr 10, 2019
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#160
@Whispered They are not the same person, they are simply similar in doctrine and listen to the same people.

Much like if you got two people from Rick Warren's church or some megachurch on a forum, they would most likely talk in the same way and act the same.
Two primitive baptists, two pentecostals or whichever sect you wish to choose. I try not to associate with any denomination, I believe they are not of God, there should be just one Church. The Church of Christ.
 
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