Multiple Heavens? (

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DB7

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
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#21
Christians are to base their beliefs upon divine revelation. Contemporary language and thought has nothing to do with it. If the Bible says there are three heavens, and you oppose that, you are simply calling God a liar.
Hyper-literalism N6, is extremely bad, naive and incompetent exegesis! 'Eat my flesh and drink my blood' means what N6? 'If your eye cause you to sin, cut it out' means what N6? 'Get behind me Satan' means what N6? 'treat evil with kindness, in doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head' means what N6? 'Charity' in the KJV means what N6?

Really???
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
1,794
113
#22
How well does the idea of the firmament being solid fit into the phrase "and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven" ... ???

Can "where the birds fly" be solid?
It was an idea I heard from a professor in a video a few years ago. Betowk in Hebrew can apparently be translated 'within' in some cases.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,835
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#23
It was an idea I heard from a professor in a video a few years ago. Betowk in Hebrew can apparently be translated 'within' in some cases.
Okay - so - that suggests "under the [solid] dome" (Flat Earth) or "inside the hollow [solid-surface] sphere" (Ball Earth) . . . ?
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
907
141
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#24
Well the reason your Bible starts off with heavens and earth is because of the (c) mark. They had to make significant changes to the text in order to obtain a copy right for their revised versions of the KJV since they couldn't obtain a (c) without those changes.

Since heaven infers expanse, as in the expanse of space which forms the body of space that all physical matter exists within, then how can one expanse be two expanses if the expanse of one would be the same substance of the second expanse meaning that it is one in the same substance so being one the same substance it would also be one in the same expanse.

Christians are to base their beliefs upon divine revelation. Contemporary language and thought has nothing to do with it. If the Bible says there are three heavens, and you oppose that, you are simply calling God a liar.
Well if you say God dwells in a created expanse then you calling God a mortal. Since the Bible begins with the heaven being created, created infers that is something which had never existed before in either form or nature. The expanse of space in Genesis 1:1 is not a void, but is body of invisible light as explained in Col 1:15 that was manifested in the physical. Which is better explained in John 5:26
wherein it is written, For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; So where do you live, if not inside the Son.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#25
Well the reason your Bible starts off with heavens and earth is because of the (c) mark. They had to make significant changes to the text in order to obtain a copy right for their revised versions of the KJV since they couldn't obtain a (c) without those changes.

Since heaven infers expanse, as in the expanse of space which forms the body of space that all physical matter exists within, then how can one expanse be two expanses if the expanse of one would be the same substance of the second expanse meaning that it is one in the same substance so being one the same substance it would also be one in the same expanse.

Well if you say God dwells in a created expanse then you calling God a mortal. Since the Bible begins with the heaven being created, created infers that is something which had never existed before in either form or nature. The expanse of space in Genesis 1:1 is not a void, but is body of invisible light as explained in Col 1:15 that was manifested in the physical. Which is better explained in John 5:26
wherein it is written, For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; So where do you live, if not inside the Son.
You are really reaching here. Do you claim you can understand our infinite God with our descriptions? I agree the real power lies in the spiritual realm (heavenly realm, if you will). We are given clues to such.

Heb. 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Eph. 6:12
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." :D
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#26
Well if you say God dwells in a created expanse then you calling God a mortal.
That is about the most nonsensical statement I have come across in a long time. Take some time to carefully study all the Scriptures about God's Heaven, then come back and tell us that you did not know enough about the matter. Invest in Nave's Topical Bible (KJV) and Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (KJV) and get into some serious study.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#27
Hyper-literalism N6, is extremely bad, naive and incompetent exegesis! 'Eat my flesh and drink my blood' means what N6? 'If your eye cause you to sin, cut it out' means what N6? 'Get behind me Satan' means what N6? 'treat evil with kindness, in doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head' means what N6? 'Charity' in the KJV means what N6? Really???
Stick with the subject under discussion.

2 CORINTHIANS 12: PARADISE IS IN THE THIRD HEAVEN WITHIN THE NEW JERUSALEM
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) -- such an one caught up to the third heaven...
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
 

DB7

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
283
138
43
#29
I was sticking with the subject at hand N6, my point was that you're taking Paul's usage of the expression 'third heaven' too literally, and I gave examples that should prove that the Bible is not literal everywhere, to qualify my position.
A 1st century man, without contemporary terminology, is going to employ archaic terms to express himself. In those days, the sky, outer-space, and God's domain itself, were probably all referred to as 'Heaven'. Because, the concept of 3 abodes of God appears to be extremely implausible and unbiblical, outside of the literal usage in the passage that you brought. Everywhere else throughout scriptures, all references to God's and the angel's realm, and the future home of the saints, seems to be a singular location.
You are being dogmatic over one, an isolated passage, and two, one that demands wisdom to interpret, not hyper-literalism.
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#30
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The first heaven.

Deu 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Psa 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

I would think this is the second heaven, or maybe it goes farther than what our eyes can see.

But it is probably the first heaven has to do with what pertains to this earth, the atmosphere, the clouds above us, and the second heaven has to do with things that do not pertain to this earth the sun, stars, with a different atmosphere, although the sun pertains to this earth to give light, and life by the sun affecting the earth.

Satan is the prince of the power of the air, and has access to the first and second heaven.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

The third heaven where God dwells with the angels.

Some people think that Paul was speaking of himself.

He knew a man above 14 years ago, which sounds like Paul is speaking of someone else, and why would he be speaking of himself when of course he would know himself 14 years ago.

He did not know if the man was in the body or out of the body, which if it was Paul he would know, and also no flesh can dwell in the 3rd heaven but by the spirit, which John was caught up in the spirit to heaven and saw where God and the angels dwell.

Paul said he will glory in that man, but of himself he will not glory, so if it is Paul why the contradiction of saying he will glory in that man and then say he will not glory of himself.