What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

"In the world you will have trouble, but be of good chear, I have overcome the world." To one church (who was walking in Love) out of seven Jesus said, "Because you have kept the word of my patience I will keep you from the time of trouble that is coming on the whole world." Yet even to them the Lord also said, "Those who overcome I will make a pilar in the temple of my God." There is still a growing up experience in Christ for them. Those who overcome no longer need refining in the fire. When the fire comes these will be cough up to God. The fire could be the nuclear war. "The rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand years is over."

80 or above

That is because we are currently not experiencing the tribulations resulting from God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Once the church has been caught up, then those judgments will take place, one after another like birth pains, beginning with the opening of the first seal.

The first seal rider on the white horse is figurative representing the antichrist, who is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse of Rev.19:11-21 who is the Lord.

The coming wrath of God is not something where people will have to wonder whether or not they are in it. For those events of wrath will be all too obvious, as it will be the worst time in the history of the world, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again.

The best proof for the pre-trib Rapture is that:

John 14:1-3 needs to be fulfilled, and this is only possible in the pre-trib model (If we are talking about premillennialism). If we are caught up at the second coming and then turn right back, John 14:1-3 was never fulfilled.


The Church is not appointed to wrath, and to anyone saying there is a difference between wrath and tribulation, I would like to just ask simply: Who is opening the seals? It is the Lamb. To those people saying God will protect His own during this time, as He did in Egypt to the Jews. That will not work in this instance, because just like Lot was removed from the city, such is the case here as well, this will have consequences and will try all the people who dwell on the earth, not just a single city. All the green grass will be burnt up (Revelation 8:7), that alone is a disaster too great to consider Jesus putting His Church through.

Is it escapism? Yes. Jesus spoke about escaping too:

Luke 21:36
Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Jesus says no man knows the day nor hour, that is a pre-trib statement, if there is no pre-trib Rapture, we can tell the time, 42 months from the abomination of desolation occuring. That would not work with Jesus' words in Matthew 24:44: "For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect."

Anyone who takes the time to compare Scripture with Scripture will end up as a ''pre-tribber'' as they call it.
The reason it takes time is because the Scriptures are not given to us in a step by step chronological format. For example if you were to read just Matthew 24 and 25, the olivet discourse as they call it, you would notice that there is not a word about the resurrection there. The word is not even mentioned. Are we therefore to conclude no resurrection is ever going to occur? Of course not, that information is just in other passages that we need to look at.

The saying is: If you're pre, you're free, if you're post, you're toast!

I know missionaries who are going through severe trials and tribulations and they are pre-trib believers, as are many Christians in China.

Pre-trib believers we are not saying that there is no problems for us here on earth, there was severe persecution during the apostolic times. No one is denying that, the question is who is doing the persecuting? Is it the world and satan or God? In this case it was satan and the world. In the time of Jacob's trouble, it will be God pouring out His wrath.

Many church fathers' works still have not been translated, we got hundreds of untranslated pages.

They were extremely confused on end times events and were not very unanimous in what they believed, they were all over the place. Remember also that the Catholic Church was largely responsible for getting rid of many works they deemed heretical.

But there are some undisputable pre-trib statements in Church history, statements where an imminent return is talked about and statements of Church being caught up before tribulation. Here are a few statements I found: https://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

The best *proof* for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not a single passage pertaining to the Rapture has anything to relate it to the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation.

But going further, every passage about the Rapture is strictly about the saints and the COMPLETION OF THEIR SALVATION. This is the fact that is generally ignored by all the naysayers.

What is the Resurrection/Rapture all about? The perfection and glorification of the saints. And why is this necessary? Because "whom He justified, He also GLORIFIED".

At the same time, it is crystal clear that at the Second Coming of Christ, Christ comes WITH His saints and angels from Heaven. Now how could He possibly bring the saints from Heaven unless He had first brought them to Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb. Which means that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was a DIVINE NECESSITY.

Hello Matt. Yes, according to the bible there are only 2 resurrections left. Which one is found in Ezek.37?

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! Zeke 37 speaks of a resurrection. There are only 2 general resurrections left according to the new testament. One at the 1Cor.15 event {called the rapture by many} and one at the great white throne. And they are not fliting off to heaven as the Rapturist claim but are takin to Israel

MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! It happens right after the tribulation period. On the Day of the Lord. The great trumpet blown {the last one} And when they are gathered {in the twinkling of an eye} they are brought into the land of Israel {Ezek.37v12}. The Rapturist claim we are flitting off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event but you will not find that anywhere in scripture.

Which resurrection do you believe is found in Ezek 37?

What do you mean by again? Do you mean His physical body on the cross the first time.

God poured out judgments on Israel, but protected His people without removing them from the land first. If we consider things similar to the events described in Revelation to previous events in the Bible, what other events are similar. Wouldn't that the plagues in Egypt before the Exodus.

A post-trib rapture explains that also, since the saints arise, then descend with Christ.

There are many passages that can be 'spun' in a pre-trib light. Pretribbers interpret a passage around pre-trib and then treat the passage as if it actually teaches pretrib.

I Thessalonians 5 sets the rapture and resurrection at the parousia, the coming of Christ, typically called 'the Second Coming.' In II Thessalonians 2, that wicked is destroyed at the brightness of Christ's parousia/coming. That doesn't fit with pre-trib. Pre-trib has the rapture occurring seven years before the second coming. It has the man of sin being destroyed at the second coming, also. I Corinthians 15:23 says that they that are Christ's will be made alive at His coming...not seven years before His coming.

So pre-trib has to invent multiple parousia of Jesus or make the parousia last for seven years. Would Christ be visible in the heavens during this time? It does not make much sense.

Sure they can. In Revelation, the city descends from heaven to the new earth. There is also a widely held belief that our disembodied spirits go to heaven between our death and the resurrection that might have some 'hints' of Biblical support.

I would take them to verses that disprove it.

Thank you sir! Can you answer this:

Historical premillennialism - You have the problem who populates the millennium? 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 proves to be a stumbling stone here too, because all the saved are given rest, glorified bodies, resurrected, and the lost are destroyed, leaving no one left in the flesh the populate the millennium. How do they get around it? They go to Zechariah 14, say some people are left, or try to otherwise twist 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 to say only SOME lost are destroyed, those who WILLINGLY dont know Him and so on.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 is a tough passage for all premillennialists since it both disproves pre-trib rapture and disproves the idea that anyone is left to populate the millennium and no one is able to rebel at the end of it.

ESCHATOLOGY IS FUN ISNT IT

Ha! If you're post you're toast? Never heard that one before, but true.

Being caught in that time period is not an honorable thing as some believe and teach. Anyone on earth during that time, will be here because they will have not believed and been ready when Jesus came to call up the church.

Though it is a blessing to endure trials and tribulation, it is not an honor to go through the wrath of God.

Good day president,

The problem with what you are suggesting is that, God was taking Israel to the land that He had promised Abraham. Likewise, Noah had to be preserved in order to repopulate the earth, else it would be empty. Also, the whole earth was not under God's wrath, just Egypt.

When the coming wrath of God begins, it will affect the entire world. There will be no ark to get on or no small city to flee to.

This coming wrath is the time that the prophets and the apostles spoke of as "the day of the Lord." To give you an example of the destruction, with just the fourth seal and the sixth trumpet, a fourth and a third respectively, over half the earths population will have been killed and that is not including trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities that will occur from the seven bowl judgments. This is supported by the fact that Jesus said, and I paraphrase "if those days had been allowed to go on any longer, no one on earth would be left alive."

Really? How do you explain the bride/church present at the wedding of the Lamb which takes place in heaven prior to the Lord returning to the earth and we with Him. Then you have the following Revelation 17:14

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The biggest problem with post-trib, is that it puts the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer.

Like many, you don't recognize the different between "our being gathered to Him" vs. "the day of the Lord," which is your error. Paul starts out with "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" and then in verse 2 & 3 he says "asserting that the day of the Lord has already come."

Our being gathered to Him = the church being caught up

The day of the Lord = God's wrath upon the earth

Our being gathered and the day of the Lord, are closely linked together. Once we are gathered, then the day of the Lord begins. You and others look at "our being gathered to Him" and "the day of the Lord" as the same event, which is the error. The day of the Lord, which is the time of God's wrath, follows the church being gathered to Him.

You are here

Our being gathered to Him

The day of the Lord begins when that apostasy takes place and the man of lawlessness is revealed

First of all, the city (new Jerusalem) does not descend after the tribulation, but after the thousand year reign of Christ.

And second, when a believer in Christ dies, their spirit departs and goes immediately to be in the presence of Christ. This is not a resurrection. In fact, the spirit departing from the body is the exact opposite of resurrection. The word "anastasis" is made up of "ana=up and hestemi=to stand" properly, to stand up again in a physical body. Therefore, the spirit departing at the time of death is not a resurrection.

When the resurrection does take place, the spirits of those in Christ will be reunited with their resurrected bodies which will be immortal and glorified. Those who are still alive at the time of the resurrection, will simply be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught with them in the atmosphere to meet the Lord in the air.

To be clear, everyone who has died in Christ from the on-set of the church, their spirits are currently in the Lord's presence in heaven. Below is Strong's definition of the word anastasis translated as resurrection:

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Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Definition: a standing up, a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Usage: a rising again, resurrection.

HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

So the Rabbis believe Prophecy is more about pattern than prediction.

We have the same pattern when God judged the world the first time (flood).

We had those who were raptured BEFORE tribulation. (Enoch)

Those that were preserved THROUGH tribulation. (Noah & family}

Those judged IN tribulation. (Unrepentant sinners)


Now, we will have those raptured BEFORE the Great tribulation. (Church)

Those saved THROUGH the Great tribulation. (Tribulation saints)

Those judged IN the Great tribulation. (Unrepentant sinners)

I'd suggest you examine WHERE the lampstands of the 7 Churches are at the start of the Great Tribulation.

NOT, on Earth, I can tell you that.

But many of those Churches got anything but good news from the Lord?

Oh that is easy.
Postribs invented the white horse uturn.
You see,what happens is the rapture occurs postrib at the seventh trump. (oh wait,there is much judgement after the seventh trump and still much of the gt left,,,,oh well) and then we all go up (oh wait Lot didn't get delivered from Sodom after,it was before,and the ac kills all those refusing the mark,so there are no saints to rapture...oh well) and then we see Jesus with millions of riderless horses,for us to mount...So there will be tons of confusion while the horse-rider deal is sorted out.

We call it the "in leu of" theory.

We skip Jesus depiction of "business in heaven" in favor of boloney sandwiches in our saddlebags.

Excuse me but how does John 14:1-3 "PROVE" a pretrib second coming or rapture? What your doing is simply quoting some verses without any sort of a time line to prove those scriptures are identifying a rapture? Anyone can state a position but as far as I have been taught one has to "PROVE" their position with evidence.

So let me get this straight? It says at Hebrews 9:28 the following. "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eargerly await Him." When Jesus appears a second time like this verse states, will this be the pretrib rapture mr. turtle?

And how about answering this question by going to the Lord Himself at Matthew 24:1-3 who was ask by His disciples the following question? Context first! "And Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple building to Him. Vs2, And He answwered and said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stonehere shall be seft upon another which will not be torn down."

Vs3 which is the key question the disciples want to know. "And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming. AND THE END OF THE AGE." The second part of their question was asking Jesus for a sing that would precede His coming and "the end of the world." Greek, aion, "age, period, era"

So without me going through all the verses of Matthew 24 verses 4-14 Jesus describes various problems that we as Christians and the world generally will go through. Ha ha, then we get to vs15, "Therefore," (And here's the tip off), when you see the Abominatio of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand).

What do we do, vs16-"we flee or run." So vs16 to vs28 describes what will be taken place, i.e the tribulation. Now look at another key and important verse. Vs29, "But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the Moon will not give the light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Vs30. AND THEN THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN WILL APPEAR IN THE SKY, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky and great glory."

Vs31, And He will send forth His angels with a GREAT TRUMPET and they will gather together HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." So I ask you, where in this detailed account given by Jesus Himself are we raptured first before all of this takes place? Have you seen the "Abomination of Desolation" yet mr. turtle? Or have you seen a dark Sun, a dark Moon or any stars falling from the sky? If Jesus does not know when He is coming back you can't know.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

You made that up.
Lot did not uturn back to Sodom,and Noah did not get delivered post flood to do a uturn back to earth.
Further,in the 10 virgin parable the wise continued on with Jesus,they didn't do a uturn.

The uturn deal is the result of a poorly thought out postrib rapture theory.

In both the parable of the 10 virgins,and rev 14,jesus returns,gathers,and never touches earth.

Are those 2 events the postrib rapture????

Wait a minute, before I address your question (and I can) you first have to tell me where the pretrib rapture occurs in what I posted from Matthew 24? Point it out without hip hoping to Matthew 25 the next chapter.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto