What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

II Thessalonians does not say all the destruction will be immediate. It's also a problem for pretribbers who have to have someone living into the millennium. II Thessalonians 2 has the church present, receiving rest when Jesus returns. Pretribbers, in my experience, typically teach that the church is gone seven years before the second coming.

What I described was pre-trib though. I'm not sure if historic premillennials believe in an actual rapture or people surviving on earth into the tribulation. My understanding of eschatology is fairly dispensational, but with the resurrection at the parousia like I Thes. 4 and I Corinthians 15 teach instead of seven years before it.

God's wrath is God's anger. It's not just bad stuff happening. God is not angry with redeemed saints who are in right relationship with him.

The 'not appointed unto wrath' verse says but ye are not appointed unto wrath, but to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice the context is wrath versus obtaining salvation. It's not about going through tough times.

Do you believe that the tribulational saints are appointed unto wrath, and not appointed to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ?

So some will be destroyed and some will live. If a tribulational saint dies during these events, do you think that means God is angry at him or her? Does it mean that they are not saved through Jesus Christ?

This is supported by the fact that Jesus said, and I paraphrase "if those days had been allowed to go on any longer, no one on earth would be left alive."

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Do you think God is angry at the elect, for whose sake this verse implies the dead are shortened.

Where is your evidence for this? Are you familiar with Revelation 19 which announces the marriage supper right before the passage about the King of Kings and Lord of Lord, which many of us take to refer to the parousia. Why should I assume a pretrib scenario here that the passage does not state. That seems to be the whole 'proof' for pre-trib, assuming pretrib scenarios around Biblical passages.

I Thessalonians tells us that at the parousia the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Where is the contradiction to post-trib here? You have to stretch the second coming out for seven years, or have two second comings with the rapture at the first one to make this work.

Show me the verses that put the tribulational saints through the wrath of God. Why wouldn't you believe they wouldn't be saved?
I Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Which category are the tribulational saints in, the 'appointed unto wrath' categry or the 'obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ' category?

Notice the order there in that verse you quote, II Thes. 2:1, I think, It says 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him". Why do you reverse the order? You have the gathering happening before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Look at the previous chapter. It tells us that the church will receive rest when Jesus comes back to execute vengence on them that know not God. Pre-trib has the church already gone when that happens. Jesus comes back to execute vengence when He returns to be glorified in the saints. Pre-trib makes two times out of that, not at the same time, like the passage says. Chapter 1 describes this as happening on 'that day.' The same day is described in chapter 2.

There is no way to get any evidence for pre-trib out of II Thessalonians 2. Pre-tribbers assume pretrib and read the theory into the passage, in spite of what it says.

I agree. Compare to 'gather' Matthew 24.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you have any Biblical evidence to split up these events? I have pointed out evidence against that idea. Do you believe in two parousias or one long seven-year second coming?

The wicked will be destroyed by the parousia of Christ (II Thes 2.) At the parousia, the saints will be raptured and resurrected (I Thes. 4.)

There is a logical problem there since the thousand year reign is after the tribulation in revelation, so, yes it does descend after the tribulation and not before it in the narrative of Revelation.

I do not recall anyone calling that a resurrection. I believe in the resurrection of the body. I don't call a disembodied state before the resurrection a 'resurrection' either, and I have opposed that idea on these forums.

Have you actually read the book of Revelation.

Take a look at this verse here at Revelation 12:11.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

How could any Christian not see this as honorable. Does the Bible say you overcame the devil, or that you loved not your life to the death? It says it about these honorable souls.

Would you say that they are not appointed to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather to God's wrath?

Matthew 24:29-31 is nothing new to me or any other pre-tribber, trust me I simply see it talking about the second coming which is preceded by signs, 42 months from the abomination of desolation Jesus returns. Yet later in the chapter Jesus says no man knows the time? Because when it comes to Jesus coming for the Church it is imminent, the second coming is not.

Matthew 24:31 says nothing of a resurrection either, it is talking about the elect being gathered from all over the earth to Jerusalem.

Luke 21:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

The doctrine of the Rapture was a mystery revealed to Paul (1 Cor 15:51-52), the Jews knew about the resurrection but not about a translation of living believers into glorifies bodies

Pre-tribbers invented the seven year U-Turn. Why would it take so long?


Paul writes of the Lord descending and the saints rising.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Which way does the Lord Jesus go in this verse?

Read what the angels said in Acts 1

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

When Jesus ascended, did He ascend, and descend again, and ascend again seven years later? No. He ascended. He will come back the same way He went up.

Where is the evidence for the whole pre-trib scenario in the first place? What is the justification for reading it into passages like this? I Corinthians 15 says they that are His will be made alive at His coming/parousia. It does not say seven years before His coming. It doesn't say at Jesus' third coming. It does not say that His coming will take seven years. I Thessalonians 4 also uses the word 'parousia.' The wicked on is destroyed at the brightness of Jesus' parousia.

Where is the justification for multiple parousia? Where is the justification for pre-trib at all from the Bible? Why isn't there a pre-trib rapture mentioned in Revelation? Why is it inconsisted with Matthew 24 which has the sign of the coming of the Son of Man after the tribulation?

Who is left to populate the millennial kingdom? Who will satan deceive at the end of the millennium?

So your position is that a bridegroom getting married never touches the ground. I don't see how this supports yoru point of view. Do you not believe that Jesus is returning? What do you do with Acts 1 where the angels say that Jesus will come again the same way he went up?

Can anyone show a clear reference to a pre-trib rapture in any sequence of events presented in the New Testament? Can you show evidence for it int he book of Revelation, Paul's writings, the eschatological passages from Christ, or anywhere else?

Where in Revelation does it say the pre-trib rapture will occur? All I've read along these lines is a rather outlandish claim that John being told 'come up hither' is about the rapture of the church-- as allegorical interpretation any amil or postmil adherent might use, and not really consistent with a literal approach to eschatology.

Since it was always an imminent event it would not require any *sequence* of events. So are you prepared to believe Christ who insisted that His coming for His saints would always be (1) imminent, (2) unexpected, and (3) sudden?

IMMINENT
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Mt 24:44)
UNEXPECTED
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe [Noah] were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be... The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not forhim, and in an hour that he is not aware of (Mt 24:36,37,50)
SUDDEN
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come... Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 24:42; 25:13)

All the apostolic churches hoped and expected that the Lord would come for His own during their lifetimes. Thus it was the Blessed Hope of the New Testament churches.

Looking for that Blessed Hope, and the glorious appearing [at the Rapture] of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13)

For our conversation [citizenship] is in Heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ [at the Rapture]: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil 3:20, 21)

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear [at the Rapture], we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)

That first one should be in the 'unexpected' category. What event are you talking about? Are you talking about the rapture or the coming of the Son of Man...or two things that occur at once.

Let's look at what the passage says.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So this is the event you are quoting Matthew 24 about? This event that happens after the tribulation. How is Matthew 24 supposed to support pre-trib, when it places the coming of the Son of man 'after the tribulation' (i.e. 'post trib)?

Why would Jesus want His disciples to be ready for the coming of the Son of Man if they were leaving seven years before it happened? If the coming of the Son of Man refers to the rapture, then Matthew 24:29-30
places it after the tribulation.

Can you show a single passage that lays out a sequence of events where the tribulation occurs before the rapture? The passage you are referring to shows the events you identify with the rapture happening after the tribulation, 'great tribulation', even (v. 21.)j

All I see from pre-tribbers is spinning a pre-trib story around passages that do not support it, which sometimes flat out contradict it.





All the apostolic churches hoped and expected that the Lord would come for His own during their lifetimes. Thus it was the Blessed Hope of the New Testament churches.
I do not disagree with you that the rapture happens at the time described here, but I notice you keep adding in the 'at the rapture' phrase in your own words in these passages. But where is there any evidence in here that this is talking about a pre-trib rapture? Imagining the rapture is pre-trib when you read verses about it does not prove pretrib.

Tough times? I would suggest that you go back and do an in depth study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And that time of God's wrath is about bad stuff happening, the worst the world will have ever seen.

Here is the scripture:

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation.
For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

It is because believers are saved, that they will not go through God's coming wrath. Those who are not, will.

"While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

In the above scripture, it states that destruction will come upon them suddenly and they will not escape. The next words are "but you

"But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief."

The first three words "but you, brother" infer the opposite of not escaping, i.e. we will escape that time period and that by what Paul had taught just prior to this which is the gathering of the church. And the way in which it will not overtake us like a thief, is because the faithful will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. If you don't like that scripture, here is another:

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." (I Thess.1:10)

I don't know whether the tribulation saints are appointed to suffer wrath God's wrath. However, because they will have not believed prior to the gathering of the church, they will unfortunately be on the earth during the time of God's wrath and will be exposed to it, just like the rest of the inhabitants. This is the very reason that Jesus urges believers to be watching and ready so that day does not take them by surprise. Regarding the great tribulation saints, consider the following:

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"Never again will they hunger, and never will they thirst;

nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat" (Rev.7:16)
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The reference to them never again hungering and being thirsty, is referring in part to the third seal judgment, which is famine and which will get worse as a result of some of the following plagues of wrath.

It also states that they will never thirst again, which would in part, be indicative of the third trumpet where a third of the rivers and fresh water are contaminated which cause many to die from drinking the water. Their thirsting would also be the result of the 2nd and 3rd bowl judgments where the ocean and fresh waters are all turned into literal blood.

And lastly, it states that the sun will no longer beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat, which is referring to the 4th bowl judgment where that angel pours his bowl upon the sun allowing it to scorch men with fire, searing them with intense heat.

So yes, they will be exposed to God's wrath and that simply because they will not have been believers when Christ appears to gather His church and will remain on the earth for that reason. During that time, they will become believers and in the midst of God's wrath and the beasts reign, they will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image, nor receive His mark, with a great number of them being killed. Consider what Jesus says to His disciples and all believers regarding that time leading up to His appearing to gather His church:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

"That day" is referring to "the day of the Lord" which begins after the church has been caught up. Once the church has been gathered then that time period will be like a trap, because God's wrath will begin to be poured out throughout that entire time period up until Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

No! It just means that they will have not been believers when Jesus comes for His church and are therefore not saved prior to that time and will therefore not be watching or ready. Jesus continues to warn believers to be watching and ready so that they can escape that time of wrath. Those tribulation saints will simply have not believed in Christ up to that point, but many will become believers once they realize that the church has been removed. I'm sure that will include many who believed in Christ, but fell back into willfully living according to the sinful nature and will therefore not be watching or ready. At that time, they will know what is coming and what they are going to have to go through. So, they will be saved, but after the church has been removed and during the time of God's wrath .

(Continued)

(Part II)

Well for one thing, it is the bride, which is another moniker representing the church, who is present at the wedding of the Lamb, where at which time she will be receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14 of the same chapter, we see the bride wearing her fine linen that she had just received and following Christ out of heaven. This is the second coming and the church will be with the Lord as He is coming down to Armageddon. Regarding the Lord's and our descent to Armageddon, consider the following:

"They (the beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.” (Rev.17:14)

You and many others make the same error by pigeonholing words, which is what you are doing here with the word "Parousia," when you should be concerned with the contexts regarding this event.

One of the biggest problems with this event, is that many do not understand that the event of the church being gathered is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. Simply put, they are not the same event. As I said in a previous post, putting the church through the time of God's wrath stems from not understanding the underlying principle, which is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Believers have been reconciled to God. This is exactly why we cannot and will not go through God's wrath.

As I said previously, it is simply because the tribulation saints will have not been believers at the time the resurrection and catching away of the church takes place. And something else that is important to understand is that, once the church is caught up, that completes the church. Meaning that, the great tribulation saints, though saved, do not belong to the church. There are a number of different groups who are saved, but not all belong to the church. You have the nation Israel, which God will be dealing with, you will have the 144,000 who come out of the twelve tribes who are not the church and there will be the great tribulation saints who will not be apart of the church. These will all be different saved groups. In support of this, from chapter 1 thru 3 the word "ekklesia" translated "church" is used 19 times. Within those same chapters you never see the word "hagios" translated "Saints." Likewise, from chapter 4 through chapter 18, we never see the word ekklesia/church. It changes to hagios/saints. The words church and saints are never used interchangeably anywhere in Revelation. Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered within Revelation, which is why the word never appears during the narrative of God's wrath.

(Continued}

(Part III)

I would argue that the "rest" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7 is talking about the rest the saved are to obtain while ruling and reigning and enjoying the millennial kingdom which happens after the Second Coming.

I think there will be survivors.

Yes, those nations that assisted Israel. See Matthew 25:31-46.

Ahwatukee, you posted quite a bit, and I may respond later if the Lord permits. But again, I did not see you post any evidence for pretrib. I see you having an a priori assumption for pretrib, asserting it is true, and trying to argue that only pretrib will fit certain passages.

But that is not evidence for pretrib. What is the evidence fir the whole pretrib theory in the first place? Can you show me a scripture that says Jesus is coming back two more times? Canyou show me a sequence of events in scripture where the rapture is mentioned followed by tribulation then the second coming.

You arguments seem strained and tenuous. Why would you assume if most drinking water is unusable that God did not preserve the usable water or some of it for the saints.? Why would that be a reason for believing in pretrib when there is no evidence for it. I do not find any of your arguments for not believing in a more straightforward interpretation of II Thessalonians. Your objections about Mt. 24 are the same critiques of pretrib. That pretribbers explain with imminence and the disciples not knowing the day or the hour. Matthew 24 tells the disciples about waiting for the coming of the Son of Man. Why would He speak this day if there were a doctrine that the saints would be raptured before the coming of the Son of Man. Can you show me where scripture teaches pretrib, not assume pretrib and try to read scripture with a pretrib assumption?

But broski how are there any survivors? It says in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 that ALL of the unbelievers are destroyed by Jesus. Those that "dont know God" and "dont obey the Gospel" that just about covers EVERYONE that aint saved!

See post #76.

Sorry bro I was asking him cause he is a post-tribber. I know for pre-tribbers who populates the millenium AINT NO PROBLEM.
But for posties it should an OBSTACLE. So im waiting for them to answer!