All Sufficient Blood of Christ

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7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#1
either the blood Jesus shed on the cross is our atonement or it is not

if God regenerated us before we can accept Christ's sacrifice on our behalf, then it what manner is that blood applied?

is there a connection to the OT sacrificial system? and if so, how is that explained

all these questions and more should be looked at when understanding how the blood is applied with regards to salvation

here is an interesting read from "Got Questions" that might help understanding for anyone who is not certain. only the 1st paragraph is supplied, so just click the link for the rest of it

if a viewpoint is expressed, it would be handy to have biblical support for it and even more so, if understanding from the OT with regards to same, was considered
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
#2
Excerpted from article at GQ: "...The blood of Christ is the basis of the New Covenant. On the night before He went to the cross, Jesus offered the cup of wine to His disciples and said, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you” (Luke 22:20). The pouring of the wine in the cup symbolized the blood of Christ which would be poured out for all who would ever believe in Him. When He shed His blood on the cross, He did away with the Old Covenant requirement for the continual sacrifices of animals. Their blood was not sufficient to cover the sins of the people, except on a temporary basis, because sin against a holy and infinite God requires a holy and infinite sacrifice. “But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” (Hebrews 10:3). While the blood of bulls and goats were a “reminder” of sin, “the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:19) paid in full the debt of sin we owe to God, and we need no further sacrifices for sin. Jesus said, “It is finished” as He was dying, and He meant just that—the entire work of redemption was completed forever, “having obtained eternal redemption” for us (Hebrews 9:12). "


Anyone remember the old classic comedy series, Laugh-In? Probably spelled that wrong, but hey, it's still a classic TV show and where Goldie Hawn got her start. She was so cute back then. Like a praying mantis in human form. Blond human form. OK, I'm weird, so what else is news?

Picture , if you remember that show, Ernestine at her switchboard: "One ringy dingy, two ringy dingy, three ringy dingy....Hello? Mr.Calvin? Mr. John Calvin? Please hold for a collect call from 2019 Christians.
Ernestine: "Go ahead Christians, you're now connected to Mr. John Calvin...."

Collect Calling Christians: STICK THAT ON YOUR PYRE AND SMOKE IT, PAL!

End of call.

 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,481
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#3
Anyone remember the old classic comedy series, Laugh-In? Probably spelled that wrong, but hey, it's still a classic TV show and where Goldie Hawn got her start. She was so cute back then. Like a praying mantis in human form. Blond human form. OK, I'm weird, so what else is news? Picture , if you remember that show, Ernestine at her switchboard: "One ringy dingy, two ringy dingy, three ringy dingy....Hello? Mr.Calvin? Mr. John Calvin? Please hold for a collect call from 2019 Christians. Ernestine: "Go ahead Christians, you're now connected to Mr. John Calvin...." Collect Calling Christians: STICK THAT ON YOUR PYRE AND SMOKE IT, PAL! End of call.
And pray tell what exactly does this nonsense have to do with the very solemn and serious matter of the shed blood of Christ? Apparently you are MOCKING that, which means that you are trampling on the blood of Christ.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
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#4
And pray tell what exactly does this nonsense have to do with the very solemn and serious matter of the shed blood of Christ? Apparently you are MOCKING that, which means that you are trampling on the blood of Christ.
Apparent to whom?
Do not bear false witness against me when you are not aware of the tenor of the OP nor my response to it.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,481
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#5
either the blood Jesus shed on the cross is our atonement or it is not
For those Christians who wish to have an in-depth understanding of the sufficiency of the blood of Christ, there is an article by Stephen Charnock (from the 17th century) which should be read and digested by all (even though it is lengthy).

It may be found here http://theoldtimegospel.com/jesus/jc_charnock1.html as well as on many other websites. Some of the highlights are listed below.

A. THE NECESSITY OF CHRIST’S PRECIOUS SHED BLOOD
THE EXCELLENCY OF CHRIST’S BLOOD BECAUSE OF HIS OBEDIENCE
THE INFINITE VALUE OF CHRIST’S BLOOD BECAUSE OF HIS SONSHIP


B. THE CLEANSING POWER OF CHRIST’S BLOOD
1. It has a virtue to cleanse. It does not actually cleanse all, but only those that believe.
2. The blood of Christ cleanseth, not has cleansed, or shall cleanse. This notes a continued act.
3. The blood of Christ cleanseth. The apostle joins nothing with this blood. It has the sole and the sovereign virtue.
4. The blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin. It is an universal remedy.


C. THE PERFECT EFFICACY OF THE BLOOD OF CHRIST
A PERFECT CLEANSING THROUGH REMISSION OF SINS
A PERFECT COVENANT FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS
A PERFECT CLEANSING FROM THE DEFILEMENT OF SIN
A PERFECT CLEANSING FROM THE GUILT OF SIN
A PERFECT SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER


D. EFFICACY OF CHRIST’S BLOOD FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

E. SUFFICIENCY OF CHRIST’S BLOOD FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,481
12,950
113
#6
Apparent to whom?
Do not bear false witness against me when you are not aware of the tenor of the OP nor my response to it.
If you were not mocking, why did you post all that nonsense which is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT (as well as irreverent)?
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
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www.christiancourier.com
#7
If you were not mocking, why did you post all that nonsense which is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT (as well as irreverent)?
My post does not qualify as either of those things.
Please do not ask me to answer your presumption. I do not read minds.
You'd have to be aware of what 7 and myself and other members here have encountered in other threads particular to John Calvin so as to understand. I will say that I took 7's OP to be a all in one renunciation of the argumentum ad nauseam surrounding TULIP in toto and Calvinism particularly.

I can appreciate you didn't appreciate the humor that sought to interject a comedic break from what can become a cantankerous exchange in the aforementioned thread types. That's your right. However, when you don't appreciate it, please do not continue to think to chastise me with your own judgments. I've told you what it meant, if you don't like it, move on. It really is that simple.
 
Dec 1, 2019
20
6
3
#8
either the blood Jesus shed on the cross is our atonement or it is not

if God regenerated us before we can accept Christ's sacrifice on our behalf, then it what manner is that blood applied?

is there a connection to the OT sacrificial system? and if so, how is that explained

all these questions and more should be looked at when understanding how the blood is applied with regards to salvation

here is an interesting read from "Got Questions" that might help understanding for anyone who is not certain. only the 1st paragraph is supplied, so just click the link for the rest of it

if a viewpoint is expressed, it would be handy to have biblical support for it and even more so, if understanding from the OT with regards to same, was considered
Absolutely!

The NT is a transformation of the OT. It is Jesus being both human and divine making things of OT perfect in Him in NT.
The parallels are endless.
Jesus is the new Isaac
Jesus is the new Adam
Jesus is new Moses leading a new exodus to new Jerusalem which is heaven
Jesus is also the heavenly bread which He gives to His people to eat on their exodus to heavenly kingdom
Jesus is the Davidic King

Jesus transformed the OT passover. He is the sacrificial lamb. And just as in the OT for the sacrifice to be accepted, they had to eat it. So as well we must eat Jesus as He is the once and for all sacrifice to God the Father.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#9
And pray tell what exactly does this nonsense have to do with the very solemn and serious matter of the shed blood of Christ? Apparently you are MOCKING that, which means that you are trampling on the blood of Christ.



come on guys. I know you both better than that

my 1st op in like forever and you know I make an awful referee :geek:
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#10
My post does not qualify as either of those things.
Please do not ask me to answer your presumption. I do not read minds.
You'd have to be aware of what 7 and myself and other members here have encountered in other threads particular to John Calvin so as to understand. I will say that I took 7's OP to be a all in one renunciation of the argumentum ad nauseam surrounding TULIP in toto and Calvinism particularly.

I can appreciate you didn't appreciate the humor that sought to interject a comedic break from what can become a cantankerous exchange in the aforementioned thread types. That's your right. However, when you don't appreciate it, please do not continue to think to chastise me with your own judgments. I've told you what it meant, if you don't like it, move on. It really is that simple.

yeah yeah he knows about the Calvin conundrum and don't we all

actually though, I did not actually mean the op to be an all in one anything

I really wanted to present and discuss via myself and anyone else, the absolute MUST for understanding what scripture presents and how the blood of Christ is either sufficient or not

I am sure you know what I think...but I could be wrong here, but it seems to me this is a topic that I have not seen the redeemed reformed bring up?

you cannot refute the truth of scripture with regards to proper comprehension by inserting regenerated prior to conversion

not if you 'get' what was really sacrificed

further, there are a few folk in this forum (relatively new I think) that refuse to think that God turned His face from His Son because Jesus was sinless.....which amounts to Jesus bore our sins but God the Father was not seeing that...talk about confusedided o_O

totally...TOTALLY...dismissing the facts of the crucifixion and the fact that it was BECAUSE He was sinless that He could take our place and equally dismissive of the fact that He became sin for us....and died with those sins upon him

now if a person cannot understand that...or prefer to state that you will not believe that...I gotta ask....then why did God turn away?
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
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www.christiancourier.com
#11



come on guys. I know you both better than that

my 1st op in like forever and you know I make an awful referee :geek:
:LOL: For a split second I thought that was Putin with the Polars.
Go ahead and admit quietly to yourself, my levity moment to start a new thread and remove the old contentions about the board concerning TULIP and such, was kinda funny. Kinda. OK, sorta.
Is that the phone. BRB.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#12
Absolutely!

The NT is a transformation of the OT. It is Jesus being both human and divine making things of OT perfect in Him in NT.
The parallels are endless.
Jesus is the new Isaac
Jesus is the new Adam
Jesus is new Moses leading a new exodus to new Jerusalem which is heaven
Jesus is also the heavenly bread which He gives to His people to eat on their exodus to heavenly kingdom
Jesus is the Davidic King

Jesus transformed the OT passover. He is the sacrificial lamb. And just as in the OT for the sacrifice to be accepted, they had to eat it. So as well we must eat Jesus as He is the once and for all sacrifice to God the Father.

right

Jesus was able to fulfill 'the law' in that He never sinned and so the law was made 'complete'. the final sacrifice is Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

and sadly, I have to comment with regards to taking away the sin of the world. these words have been misapprehended by some recently to mean that we are saying salvation is universal...however, the understanding, according to scripture, is that WHOSOEVER WILL is the formula for truth

not sure where you heard some of what you saying here, but not necessarily what I would take up arms about ;)

there are parallels in what you say regarding who Jesus is....maybe if you have time and would care to develop them further? if you want
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#13
:LOL: For a split second I thought that was Putin with the Polars.
Go ahead and admit quietly to yourself, my levity moment to start a new thread and remove the old contentions about the board concerning TULIP and such, was kinda funny. Kinda. OK, sorta.
Is that the phone. BRB.
luvin the bears myself...almost all animals actually

well, we do have to bear with one another ;).....

perhaps sorta? I won't say 'sort it out'

I think that is Netanyahu

maybe
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#14
a bit of a startling truth when you really think about it, is the fact that scripture tells us point blank that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin(s) *

Hebrews 9

9 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.

6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry.
7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The Blood of Christ
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

* v.22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
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113
www.christiancourier.com
#15
yeah yeah he knows about the Calvin conundrum and don't we all

actually though, I did not actually mean the op to be an all in one anything

I really wanted to present and discuss via myself and anyone else, the absolute MUST for understanding what scripture presents and how the blood of Christ is either sufficient or not

I am sure you know what I think...but I could be wrong here, but it seems to me this is a topic that I have not seen the redeemed reformed bring up?

you cannot refute the truth of scripture with regards to proper comprehension by inserting regenerated prior to conversion

not if you 'get' what was really sacrificed

further, there are a few folk in this forum (relatively new I think) that refuse to think that God turned His face from His Son because Jesus was sinless.....which amounts to Jesus bore our sins but God the Father was not seeing that...talk about confusedided o_O

totally...TOTALLY...dismissing the facts of the crucifixion and the fact that it was BECAUSE He was sinless that He could take our place and equally dismissive of the fact that He became sin for us....and died with those sins upon him

now if a person cannot understand that...or prefer to state that you will not believe that...I gotta ask....then why did God turn away?
Like unto the scapegoat in scripture. Jesus was the perfect lamb sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. Is that then why the sky darkened prior to His death on the cross? So that none could see the agony of that transferred to the countenance of one so peace filled to those that knew and walked with Him?

The process of the Reformed view of TULIP in the Salvation formula is confusedided to begin with. Can any Bible supported reason appear from that ? I think not. " 29.For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate" The Book of Romans chapter 8.
God predestined due to his foreknowledge of our faith. God did not premake us for Salvation by doing all the work, including making us to have faith in Him. Such puts the cross to non-effect.
 
Dec 1, 2019
20
6
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#16
Since Jesus is the sacrificial lamb for our sins, we have a participatory role in this new covenant as Jesus told us at the Last Supper. Jesus' death happened once, but His sacrifice to the Father is heavenly, it is perpetual. In heaven, Jesus' sacrifice never ends. It is always and forever being presented in front of the Father for our sins.

We see in the Didache of our participatory role in this in section 14.
1. On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;
2. But let none who has a quarrel with his fellow join in your meeting until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not defiled.
3. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, "In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king," saith the Lord, "and my name is wonderful among the heathen."

We are participating in the sacrifice. Just as in the OT, they sacrificed lambs to God for their sins but they had to eat of the lamb. Jesus transformed the OT passover, and takes the place of the sacrificial lamb for our sake, but we need to participate in that passover and eat His body and drink His blood in the Eucharist, which happens at every Holy Mass around the world. The Holy Mass and Jesus present in the Eucharist is the New Testament/Covenant. It is not a document or a book. Jesus said to do this... in Greek those words, Do this, mean offer the sacrifice.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#17
Like unto the scapegoat in scripture. Jesus was the perfect lamb sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. Is that then why the sky darkened prior to His death on the cross? So that none could see the agony of that transferred to the countenance of one so peace filled to those that knew and walked with Him?

The process of the Reformed view of TULIP in the Salvation formula is confusedided to begin with. Can any Bible supported reason appear from that ? I think not. " 29.For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate" The Book of Romans chapter 8.
God predestined due to his foreknowledge of our faith. God did not premake us for Salvation by doing all the work, including making us to have faith in Him. Such puts the cross to non-effect.
yeah...confusedided gets you off to a bad start

had an interesting convo with my husband a week or so back...about predestination and he made a good point...said that people try to understand the way God sees things from a human perspective.

of course God knows who will be His because He IS...no time, no history, no limitations. that kinda gives me goosebumps

I forgot about the scapegoat...great point...thinking now of the verse that states God removes our sins as far as the east from the west (or west from east?)

anyway...east and west cannot meet, nor shift like the polls
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#18
Since Jesus is the sacrificial lamb for our sins, we have a participatory role in this new covenant as Jesus told us at the Last Supper. Jesus' death happened once, but His sacrifice to the Father is heavenly, it is perpetual. In heaven, Jesus' sacrifice never ends. It is always and forever being presented in front of the Father for our sins.

We see in the Didache of our participatory role in this in section 14.
1. On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;
2. But let none who has a quarrel with his fellow join in your meeting until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not defiled.
3. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, "In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king," saith the Lord, "and my name is wonderful among the heathen."

We are participating in the sacrifice. Just as in the OT, they sacrificed lambs to God for their sins but they had to eat of the lamb. Jesus transformed the OT passover, and takes the place of the sacrificial lamb for our sake, but we need to participate in that passover and eat His body and drink His blood in the Eucharist, which happens at every Holy Mass around the world. The Holy Mass and Jesus present in the Eucharist is the New Testament/Covenant. It is not a document or a book. Jesus said to do this... in Greek those words, Do this, mean offer the sacrifice.

I can agree with much of what you write here, but with reference to the words 'do this in remembrance of me' (Jesus to His disciples) do this, in remembrance, would actually reflect the instructions God gave to the Israelites throughout His engagements with them

the entire quote would be 'do this in remembrance of me' not just 'do this'

perhaps I misunderstand? are you saying we are to offer some kind of sacrifice?

when you state 'Holy Mass" are you referring to Catholicism?

we call the remembrance of Jesus sacrifice, communion, which means 'gathering together'

I am trying to understand what you are saying here better
 
Dec 1, 2019
20
6
3
#19
I can agree with much of what you write here, but with reference to the words 'do this in remembrance of me' (Jesus to His disciples) do this, in remembrance, would actually reflect the instructions God gave to the Israelites throughout His engagements with them

the entire quote would be 'do this in remembrance of me' not just 'do this'

Yes, Do this in remembrance of me. The translation in Greek of the verb do, means sacrifice. So we miss that crucial word in the English language.

perhaps I misunderstand? are you saying we are to offer some kind of sacrifice?

Well of course. They are our sins aren't they? Just look in the OT, what did the Jews do? We are to do the same by participating the sacrifice as Jesus through the Holy Mass on the altar. Jesus transformed the OT covenant. We still have a covenant in the NT to follow and that is participating in the sacrifice through the Holy Mass. Remember, nowhere did Jesus say to write a book. He said to, DO or sacrifice.

when you state 'Holy Mass" are you referring to Catholicism?

Well of course lol. I don't see any altars or partaking in any sacrifices in the Baptist Church.

we call the remembrance of Jesus sacrifice, communion, which means 'gathering together'

“There is a boy here who has five barley loaves and two fish; but what good are these for so many.” – St. Andrew the Apostle, 1st century A.D.

“But let no one eat or drink of the Eucharist except those who have been baptized into the name of the Lord, for the Lord has also spoken concerning this: ‘Do not give what is holy to dogs.’” – The Didache, late 1st century A.D

“Only that Eucharist which is under the authority of the bishop (or whomever he himself designates) is to be considered valid. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the congregation be; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” – St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107-110

“For we do not receive these things as common bread nor common drink; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Savior having been incarnate by God’s logos took both flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food eucharistized through the word of prayer that is from Him, from which our blood and flesh are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who became incarnate. – St. Justin Martyr, First Apology, A.D. 151-155

“For as the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly; so also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity.” – St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, A.D. 177-183​
“We give thanks to the Creator of all, and, along with thanksgiving and prayer for the blessings we have received, we also eat the bread presented to us; and this bread becomes by prayer a sacred body, which sanctifies those who sincerely partake of it.” – Origen, Against Celsus, A.D. 248

“The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ.” – St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, A.D. 348-350​
“You will see the Levites bringing the loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made, it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wonderous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ….When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body. – St. Athanasius of Alexandria, Sermon to the Newly Baptized, A.D. 373​
“Now we, as often as we receive the Sacramental Elements, which by the mysterious efficacy of holy prayer are transformed into the Flesh and the Blood, ‘do show the Lord’s Death.’” – St. Ambrose of Milan, On the Christian Faith, A.D. 378-379​
“It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. ‘This is my body,’ he says. This word transforms the things offered. – St. John Chrysostom, Against the Judaizers, A.D. 386-387

“How was Christ carried in His Own Hands? Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in like manner carried Himself, when He said, ‘This is My Body.’” – St. Augustine, Exposition on the Psalms, A.D. 396-420

“He did not say, ‘This is the symbol of My Body, and this, of My Blood,’ but, what is set before us, but that it is transformed by means of the Eucharistic action into Flesh and Blood.” – St.Theodore of Mopsuestia, Commentary on Matthew, A.D. 400-415

“For when the Lord says, ‘unless you have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man, and drunk His blood, you will not have life in you,’ you ought so to be partakers at the Holy Table, as to have no doubt whatever concerning the reality of Christ’s Body and Blood.” – St. Leo the Great, Sermon 91, A.D. mid-5th century


I am trying to understand what you are saying here better
I think all those men I quoted explain overwhelmingly clear.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
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www.christiancourier.com
#20
yeah...confusedided gets you off to a bad start
had an interesting convo with my husband a week or so back...about predestination and he made a good point...said that people try to understand the way God sees things from a human perspective.

of course God knows who will be His because He IS...no time, no history, no limitations. that kinda gives me goosebumps

I forgot about the scapegoat...great point...thinking now of the verse that states God removes our sins as far as the east from the west (or west from east?)

anyway...east and west cannot meet, nor shift like the polls
I like that observation hubby made. Great insight and something I didn't think about either. People try to understand the way God sees things from a human perspective.
And shouldn't we know better than that. God is a spirit, the Holy Spirit. He is not a man that He should lie. In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and The Word was God.

Those spliced together excerpts from scripture, just a few that describe God, should tell us in the full context of just that excerpt, that how man defines chosen, is not how God saw those He foreknew would choose Him. Foresight. God is all knowing, all powerful, everyplace at the same time eternally, and the only creator of all that is, was, or shall ever be.

Pride and vanity are dangerous sins. Imagine little tiny us specks in all the universes and galaxies that exist, daring to think we are predestined by that which gave life to the mere images Hubble returns to our gaze, that only a select collection of human dust would be His robots.
Made in the image and the likeness of the Borg.

I think not.






There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.